Driving the Grenadier!

[jeremy996]

While I was in France, Ineos sent me a new e-mail offering a brief driving experience in the UK. (An unofficial Grenadier forum confirmed similar days in Germany).

VIEW IN BROWSER Hi Jeremy, Great news! We’re giving you priority access to get into the driver’s seat of one of our Grenadier pre-production vehicles. With the support of a trained driver you can experience our new 4X4’s capabilities first-hand at a venue near you. Location: Hounslow Hall Estate, Milton Keynes Dates: 27 September - 1 October Times: 09:00-17:40 Booking link: https://grenadierevents.com/uktour-hounslowhall Location: Graythwaite Estate, Cumbria Dates: 4-8 October Times: 09:00-17:40 Booking link: https://grenadierevents.com/uktour-graythwaite Location: Roxburghe Estate, Scotland Dates: 13-15 October Times: 09:00-17:40 Booking link: https://grenadierevents.com/uktour-roxburghe Location: Firle Place, Lewes Dates: 18-22 October Times: 09:00-17:40 Booking link: https://grenadierevents.com/uktour-firleplace This is your chance to finally get inside this rugged off-roader on a private estate. Whether you choose morning or afternoon, you can get to grips with the Grenadier in your own dedicated session over varied driving terrains. And ask our experts whatever questions you like. You can bring a friend too, but be quick – places are limited and we don’t want you to miss out. BOOK NOW > Please remember to bring your driving licence with you on the day. Can’t make it this time? Don’t worry – just email automotive.eventsuk@ineosgrenadier.com and we’ll let you know when there’s another event happening in your area. The Grenadier Team   I'm booked for Thursday 29th September at 15:00. Expect some form of write up.

Edited September 27, 2022 by jeremy996
speeling

[landroversforever]

 speeling?  

 

Even if it's only a short drive, that will be your first drive right? Very interested to hear your thoughts!

[jeremy996]

I've sent 30 minutes driving and probably more than an hour talking about the Grenadier. I loved it; it's comfortable, powerful, easy to drive, comparatively quiet, (compared to a Fiat 500C not an '89 LR110CSW), the only thing that I'm not crazy about is I will need to buy some form of test book for really heavy maintenance, although there are some workarounds. Modern emissions standards require some repairs and replacements to be logged with the diagnostic systems. 

My old LR110 would have been able to do most of the test track laid out, although it would have been short on power for some of the short climbs, so I would have been looking for low box 1st or 2nd and revving the bits off 111bhp of 200Tdi! The diesel Grenadier has nearly 300bhp and an 8 speed auto box, so it would be no contest.

My appointment was at 1500 and I arrived half an hour early. I was registered, had my driving licence checked and was offered a coffee and a cake before going for a drive on a prepared track, (think land Rover Experience, with less concrete and manicured grass). The surfaces were grass, concrete, gravel track, rutted grass, loamy mud and a brief bit of tarmac. The lowest speed was 3mph, the highest 65mph and the transition was surprisingly rapid! The high speed was across grass parkland from a slow start - I think my passenger/minder was having a laugh. The ride was surprisingly good; like a tidied up P38; it was busier than a new Defender, you could tell it is live axled, but it was controlled and with limited roll. I asked about the ride on the highway, but my passenger had never driven it on road.

After the drive, I spoke to Lee, who I understand to be the Service and Warranty Manager for the UK, Europe and the Middle East. He said the service manual and parts book was mostly done but not finally signed off as some parts were not yet finalised. He said that maintaining it on the drive would be possible, although some jobs would be much easier with a lift. Most fault codes could be read with a basic reader, but some body codes would need a more sophisticated reader/writer, (say £600 and a software licence), emissions made some items replaceable only with test equipment to code them. Generally warranty would be maintained no matter who did the servicing if you could prove the right fluids and parts were used; service agents were preferred, (control and contractual standards), so keep any invoices! 

The vehicle used was a 5 seat Commercial with solid rear panels in white; they were all production test vehicles with some pre-production plastics and unresolved internal electronics and programming. They were happy to open the bonnet of the petrol engined car, (the purple one), as that was signed off, but the diesels has some "sub-optimal wiring", so the diesel engine bay was kept firmly shut. 

I took some pictures, appended below; the muddy black one is a 2 seat commercial with factory winch and tow bar, the purple one is a Trailmaster, and the white and green ones are 5 seat commercials.

[simonr]

That looks pretty good.  Everything I hoped the new defender would be in fact!

Only a shame there's no SWB version.  Having had two 110's, two 90's and two SWB Series - SWB seems to fit my purposes better.

[Northwards]

Really interested to see the pics, and hear your opinions. Like many I suspect, I’m interested in the car in a vague ‘some time in the future’ sense.

I did get in touch with one of their staff via their website, having gone through the ‘configurator’, with a couple of questions: could the 2nd row seats be fully removed if desired; had they any images of the integrated tarp they are offering; and had they considered ‘gull wing’ windows.

They said that the seats couldn’t be removed - and seeing your pic of the electrics in that space, I could understand that. Did you happen to see a LWB commercial version, and whether it had seats or not?

As it’s not monocoque, I’m assuming the aftermarket will jump quickly onto the idea of gullwings and rear storage options.

[Retroanaconda]

There has been much talk of the drivers footwell on the Facebook groups, for some people it seems to be a major issue. From your photos I can see it clearer, with a big lump to provide clearance for something underneath right where your left leg would want to sit. I guess it will depend on your build and leg length. How did you find it?

The vehicle does look good (front end aside), but I still hate that dashboard 

[Arjan]

Good Read - Thank You !!

Pity the on the road price here in France is just staggering.....

[jeremy996]

8 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

There has been much talk of the drivers footwell on the Facebook groups, for some people it seems to be a major issue. From your photos I can see it clearer, with a big lump to provide clearance for something underneath right where your left leg would want to sit. I guess it will depend on your build and leg length. How did you find it?

The vehicle does look good (front end aside), but I still hate that dashboard 

It has also been an issue on the Grenadier forum I frequent, but it had no bearing on my seating positon and driving experience. I'm 6' and 100kg, so firmly within the usual parameters for drivers in cars.

[Anderzander]

Looks like it would be quite a nice place to rest your foot? 
 

I think what attracted me to them was the engineering approach - having poked around them in the metal though I came away with some new thinking on it.

I was really surprised how nice they were inside, but then I thought it through and of course that’s part of their design goals. Making it a nice comfortable place to be.

I also iked how they’d got lots of nice little detail ideas in it - lot of thought have obviously gone into people using it, and that showed.

I really didn’t like the front end in every photo I saw - but in the metal it looked ok. Not sure how that works ?  I love the back though.

[jeremy996]

10 hours ago, Northwards said:

They said that the seats couldn’t be removed - and seeing your pic of the electrics in that space, I could understand that. Did you happen to see a LWB commercial version, and whether it had seats or not?

As it’s not monocoque, I’m assuming the aftermarket will jump quickly onto the idea of gullwings and rear storage options.

There has not been a LWB Commercial seen in the wild yet, (some double cabs have been photographed on a transporter). 

I did take a number of pictures of the current 2 Seat Commercial, pictures 4 to 15 above, (the black one). Effectively the bed is raised up to clear the electrics and extends from the tailgate to the load barrier. The lump of plastic you can see on the load floor near the barrier is the middle of the bumper, removed to access the winch.

[Northwards]

Thanks Jeremy, actually that's what I meant by LWB - a 4  door vehicle like the 'old' Defender 110. So your picture shows just what I was asking about, thanks.

[jeremy996]

The current vehicle has a 115" wheelbase; there is a 125" vehicle in the works, initially as a double cab.

Sir Jim Radcliffe has intimated that there is also a full EV SWB proposed for the future. 

Glad the picture helps.

[landroversforever]

4 hours ago, Anderzander said:

Looks like it would be quite a nice place to rest your foot? 

Looks like it would be to me too. It’s not like it’s a strange angle compared to a (non existent) clutch pedal. 

[Gazzar]

It looks like a practical working vehicle. Very little pretence, aside from the roof switches (love them btw). I like it.  I doubt I'll ever buy one, no use case, but good to see on the market. Shame not built locally to me, but that's got to be true for someone, no matter where it's built.

[jeremy996]

I've been offered another opportunity to drive a Grenadier off road at the Midland Machinery Show at Newark Showground on November 16th by Chandlers of Belton, my supplying dealer. I'm taking a friend with me, so hopefully I'll get some more photographs and some video.

I'm very much looking forwards to it.

[jeremy996]

I went to the Midland Machinery Show at Newark Showground and drove the Grenadier off-road again.

The vehicle was a PTO2, (Production test build, iteration 2), Petrol N1 with 5 seats, leather, safari windows, compass, extended electrics, steel wheels and K02 tyres, so fairly close to final production but they were strict about no under bonnet shots and would not allow video of the dash while in motion. There were bings and bongs of error messages as the softwear is still not finalised, but I thought the dash and instruments were very promising and the build seemed excellent.

I took a friend who got to drive the Grenadier, which he enjoyed. He is not an off-roader, he used to work for Rover/BMW, so it was rather novel and I was interested to hear his feedback. He was greatly impressed by the build quality and by the power available, but he found the steering a little numb and had some issues with overdriving the vehicle in the ruts. The dash gives the steering angle, so you can see clearly when the wheel is off centre, (the marker on the wheel is also a clue!), so a regular off road driver is likely to give different feedback there.

This was shortly before I was told off for taking pictures inside the vehicle. Once we had got to the offroad site, the minder/driver pressed the off-road button and told us it turned off the seat belt warnings, the parking sensors and changed the dash to include the inclination displays, steering angles and the diff lock settings. 

 

After adding a little but more mud onto the vehicle

 

Tow gear, but no idea of the standard electrics fitted. 

 

I thought it drove beautifully. The test track was not particularly daunting, wet grass, soft mud and ruts, damaged concrete, but the vehicle was easy to control and modulate the power, (my friend did spin the wheels in places), it was comfortable and even sitting in the back, I was happy to stay a while. I asked our driver/minder if he had done much road mileage in a Grenadier and he replied he had and found it both comfortable and relaxing. The on-road ride he considered to be well controlled and reassuring, even on the K02 tyres, (the road-biased tyres are quieter).

All in all, a good way to spend a morning. All I need now is a contract to sign!

[Badger110]

Not much room in the back from the pictures?

 

I do like the centre console being flat all the way to the dash/bulkhead...no silly places to get clogged with dog hair/mud/sweetwrappers/coins etc

[Chicken Drumstick]

Really liking the look of these. That blue is lovely too.

I hope lots of people buy them.... on PCP or similar. That way I stand a chance of being able to afford a 3-4 year old used one at some point.

[jeremy996]

2 hours ago, Badger110 said:

Not much room in the back from the pictures?

The pictures are the commercial 5 seat wagon; the seats are about 6cm nearer the front seat backs and slightly more upright to increase rear load space. The Field/Trailmaster versions are intended more for people and the seats are further to the rear.

I had a long conversation with the Ineos staff about what the implication of moving the seats would be; a nasty fine and repayment of any VAT reclaimed. To meet the taxation rules, the ability to mount the seats in the Field/Trailmaster positions has to be physically difficult, so weld in the holes or an alternative component is not impossible.  

[landroversforever]

13 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

The pictures are the commercial 5 seat wagon; the seats are about 6cm nearer the front seat backs and slightly more upright to increase rear load space. The Field/Trailmaster versions are intended more for people and the seats are further to the rear.

I had a long conversation with the Ineos staff about what the implication of moving the seats would be; a nasty fine and repayment of any VAT reclaimed. To meet the taxation rules, the ability to mount the seats in the Field/Trailmaster positions has to be physically difficult, so weld in the holes or an alternative component is not impossible.  

Interesting, as far as I know all the D2/3/4 it’s just nuts and bolts to put the other rows of seats in? Mate fitted the rear most pair to his D3 commercial and other than modifying the floor it was a bolt in job. 

[Gazzar]

Depends on legislation in different jurisdictions. And individual inspectors. 

In the Republic of Ireland they used to be very strict, insisting on seeing weld in seatbelt mounting holes.

As the difference in road tax could be several thousand euro a year the temptation was great. 

Now you can't run a commercial vehicle at commercial tax rates unless registered as a business, so the temptation is less.

[Chicken Drumstick]

8 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

The pictures are the commercial 5 seat wagon; the seats are about 6cm nearer the front seat backs and slightly more upright to increase rear load space. The Field/Trailmaster versions are intended more for people and the seats are further to the rear.

I had a long conversation with the Ineos staff about what the implication of moving the seats would be; a nasty fine and repayment of any VAT reclaimed. To meet the taxation rules, the ability to mount the seats in the Field/Trailmaster positions has to be physically difficult, so weld in the holes or an alternative component is not impossible.  

For the UK I'm not sure that is 100% correct. I was reading a page the other day and the .gov site due to people fitting rear seats in the commercial Jimny's.

There is no law saying you can't have seats in the back of say a transit van. So it would be true for any other commercial vehicle. The biggest risk would be if it could then be classified as regular passenger car so may have tax and other implications. But it would be dependant on the exact vehicle and changes I believe.

 

EDIT: found the link

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/converting-a-van-to-carry-passengers-in-the-rear/converting-a-van-to-carry-passengers-in-the-rear

[ThreePointFive]

Really good to read your first hand experience, Jeremy. 

[jeremy996]

14 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

For the UK I'm not sure that is 100% correct. I was reading a page the other day and the .gov site due to people fitting rear seats in the commercial Jimny's.

There is no law saying you can't have seats in the back of say a transit van. So it would be true for any other commercial vehicle. The biggest risk would be if it could then be classified as regular passenger car so may have tax and other implications. But it would be dependant on the exact vehicle and changes I believe.

EDIT: found the link

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/converting-a-van-to-carry-passengers-in-the-rear/converting-a-van-to-carry-passengers-in-the-rear

From my digging around you are exactly right. The only restriction appears to be VAT and vehicle class as these both affect taxation and would constitute a fraud if it reduced the tax collected. 

I cannot recover the VAT, so I will explore the ability to change the seat to the rearmost position, although I may not actually do it for a number of years. Having sat in the back for half an hour and being 6ft and 100kg, I am much less worried about what smaller family members might whinge about! The back seats are much better than a stock pre 2016 Defender.

[jeremy996]

Just saw this on Youtube - Driving the Grenadier at Midland Machinery Show.