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Fitting new Salisbury bearings and setting float with no old bearings


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My detroit locker on my 2002 110 has started to break up so I'm fitting a Ashcroft ATB into the diff since that is better for the ice and snow we have here in Sweden. Even with a 15 ton puller I can't get the old bearings off the detroit locker.

So when fitting the ATB, it will have new Timken bearings... but that means installing the new bearings and carrier, measuring play, pulling the carrier out, shimming, remeasuring, etc. Very tedious. Normally you hone out your old bearings and use them to set the float before installing the new bearings and locking it up. 

So any suggestions for how I can do this easiest not being able to use the old bearings?

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Ok

Salisbury don’t have “adjuster rings” 

you literally stretch the casing to get the center out and on each side of the carrier bearing races is a shim

before you take the old center out blue check and photo the drive side pattern and measure the backlash in 4 quadrants and write down the numbers 

 

when you have done the change you are trying to match the above in both pattern and backlash closer the better 

if you put new bearings on the backlash will vary between both the bearings being new and also can vary if the bearings are a differing make 

if you replace them as well as a different brand it’s worse try to see what’s on there and buy sand brand 

now

to do it properly you need to buy x 4 carrier bearings

2 x of the races you need to spin down on a large to make them fit easier - basically sacrifical 

then you press the new bearings on and use the ground down races original shims get it in remove stretcher unit and measure back lash 

too much backlash means bigger shim on the non tooth side of CW

Not enough backlash means reverse 

stretcher back on center out move add change shins and back in etc

 

ground races just make it a zlOT easier to swap in out every time 

when you do this you may also need to increase decrease on the opposite side as well 

often these are built with same shims whacked in each side - that’s a reason they are often clunky as the shins are expensive there are lots of them and with these even factory did a “near enough”

The shins are not cheap

not altering the pinion is a HUGE bonus

I would guess you could have high backlash if worn  if you go for the normal book setttings those are when new and it don’t be happy !

blue checking is also your friend .if you have a half decent pattern on the drive side which matches the original and back lash in the close to original range and not massive run out in 4 wuadrants of being measured 12 3 6 and 9 o clock positions) that is good enough 

these are horrible to set up that’s why often they clunk clack and make grumbles as often not set properly lol

 

enjoy

and no ….

we do not work on these things !!!!

 

nige

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The chances are not insignificant that the original Salisbury shims were reused on the Detroit diff, so the preload and backlash may have already been wrong.  Certainly,just transferring the current shims to the ATB isn’t accurate enough, and it needs to be set up correctly as Nige said.  It is good enough if just replacing the bearings with the same spec and brand but retaining the original diff and main gears.

People who rebuild Dana or Salisbury diffs often will tend to get themselves a pair of dummy bearings, just solid steel or perhaps aluminium rings that have exactly the same depth and outer diameter as a complete bearing, but just a little loose on the inside diameter so that they can be slipped on and off the diff easily by hand and allow rotation without play.  That would be more expensive than buying a second pair of bearings and opening out the inner diameter to achieve the same snug but free fit, though would be easier and more robust in frequent use.  It’s shame you can’t get the old bearings off to use them the same way.

Once you have some sort of dummy bearing set, fit them without shims to the ATB and install that in the axle before fitting the ring gear.  Measure the lateral end float - that, plus the preload thickness (5 thou rings a bell, but I need to check), will determine the total shim thickness you will need.  Then fit the ring gear and all the shims on the side away from the ring gear to give maximum backlash.  Measure the backlash and then use the formula in the manuals to determine what thickness of shims need transferring to the opposite side.  Do that and check the backlash again and it should  be spot on.  Swap the bearings for the unmodified new set and then run a pattern for confirmation.

I’ll try to find the manual extracts for the preload thickness and that backlash formula - I will e doing this myself for the Ashcroft ATB I bought earlier this year (and some Dana 4.1 gears I bought for it) at some point…

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Found them.

The LR manual has a slightly different process for getting the right amount of shims on one side for backlash than the Salisbury manual I once read, but it should work and is comparable in simplicity, perhaps easier.  It basically says the same thing for measuring the total shimming by adding 5 thou to the measured endfloat on the unshimmed diff.  The difference in the manual from what I said is that they already have the ring gear fitted but the pinion removed, so they don’t mesh and limit the end float.  Since you are keeping the pinion fitted, you need to do this step without the ring gear.
 

 For getting the split of shims right for backlash, the LR manual says to then, without fitting all the shims to one side (as directed in the Salisbury manual) but with the ring gear fitted, to measure the end float of the diff between the diff pressed all the way in and all the way out of mesh on the pinion.  Take that endfloat value, subtract 10 thou and that is the thickness of the shim pack used to push the ring gear into mesh, the rest of the combined shims (including the 5 thou for preload) goes on the other side.

I took screen shots of the relevant parts below.  Here is the link to the whole chapter: http://site.lrch.nl/sites/default/files/Differentieel Salisbury.pdf

AA0F5D74-A082-48AC-9FDF-1C2206377918.png

29C5276C-29F0-490A-AE1F-25CACA802625.png

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My experience is, that bearings are (even if different brands) so identical, that it is most likely possible to use the old distances. I had that effect 2 times with salisbury (but did not change diff casing) and 3 times with wheel bearings.

Just try it and check backlash and blue pattern. The chance is great.

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21 minutes ago, Sigi_H said:

My experience is, that bearings are (even if different brands) so identical, that it is most likely possible to use the old distances. I had that effect 2 times with salisbury (but did not change diff casing) and 3 times with wheel bearings.

Just try it and check backlash and blue pattern. The chance is great.

Not if changing the differential unit itself with a new unshimmed item, especially when the new diff and the diff being replaced are non-standard models.  Some different brand bearings may have the same thickness, but that is by no means guaranteed and is often not the case.  Only with the same brand and part number can you reasonably confidently assume matching dimensions, but even then you’ll still need to check end float and backlash as the consequences of it being wrong are very significant.
 

I have swapped the pinions and diff complete with ring gear back and forth between 109 and 110 units without altering the diff shims and it was correct, but that was with standard factory parts and identical Timken bearings, but they still needed checking.

Wheel bearings have no effect on diff tolerances, so that is irrelevant.

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Not so much that I disagree …..more a big red “flag” to consider 

most Salisbury’s will have done big miles / hard work

as such CWPs will  have a position that they have spent all their lives in

many many salisburys are set up incorrectly at factory from new - at near enough / good enough or within “tolerances” - which can be wider than you might expect - many of them are often way outside that tolerance even !

as such if you don’t reset the unit back to where it’s lived all it’s working life and is “happy” and go using the manual and it set it up to “new” / factory specs / tolerances - 

you run the risk of it then howling like a hyena having its tail run through a mangle 

set it to what it is now not what the manual says it should be !! 
 

nige

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7 minutes ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

Not so much that I disagree …..more a big red “flag” to consider 

most Salisbury’s will have done big miles / hard work

as such CWPs will  have a position that they have spent all their lives in

many many salisburys are set up incorrectly at factory from new - at near enough / good enough or within “tolerances” - which can be wider than you might expect - many of them are often way outside that tolerance even !

as such if you don’t reset the unit back to where it’s lived all it’s working life and is “happy” and go using the manual and it set it up to “new” / factory specs / tolerances - 

you run the risk of it then howling like a hyena having its tail run through a mangle 

set it to what it is now not what the manual says it should be !! 
 

nige

Sounds very plausible. Since dimensions of bearings are very identical, the old shims should pruduce almost the same blue pattern.

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3 hours ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

Not so much that I disagree …..more a big red “flag” to consider 

most Salisbury’s will have done big miles / hard work

as such CWPs will  have a position that they have spent all their lives in

many many salisburys are set up incorrectly at factory from new - at near enough / good enough or within “tolerances” - which can be wider than you might expect - many of them are often way outside that tolerance even !

as such if you don’t reset the unit back to where it’s lived all it’s working life and is “happy” and go using the manual and it set it up to “new” / factory specs / tolerances - 

you run the risk of it then howling like a hyena having its tail run through a mangle 

set it to what it is now not what the manual says it should be !! 
 

nige

Sounds very prudent.  Since the pinion is not being moved and the preload should be set at the +5 thou, all that has to be set is the backlash, so that shouldn’t be much of a deviation from standard procedure and easy enough to replicate the existing backlash without too much trial and error using the standard procedure as a starting point.

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On 12/2/2022 at 9:13 PM, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

Ok

Salisbury don’t have “adjuster rings” 

you literally stretch the casing to get the center out and on each side of the carrier bearing races is a shim

before you take the old center out blue check and photo the drive side pattern and measure the backlash in 4 quadrants and write down the numbers 

 

when you have done the change you are trying to match the above in both pattern and backlash closer the better 

if you put new bearings on the backlash will vary between both the bearings being new and also can vary if the bearings are a differing make 

if you replace them as well as a different brand it’s worse try to see what’s on there and buy sand brand 

now

to do it properly you need to buy x 4 carrier bearings

2 x of the races you need to spin down on a large to make them fit easier - basically sacrifical 

then you press the new bearings on and use the ground down races original shims get it in remove stretcher unit and measure back lash 

too much backlash means bigger shim on the non tooth side of CW

Not enough backlash means reverse 

stretcher back on center out move add change shins and back in etc

 

ground races just make it a zlOT easier to swap in out every time 

when you do this you may also need to increase decrease on the opposite side as well 

often these are built with same shims whacked in each side - that’s a reason they are often clunky as the shins are expensive there are lots of them and with these even factory did a “near enough”

The shins are not cheap

not altering the pinion is a HUGE bonus

I would guess you could have high backlash if worn  if you go for the normal book setttings those are when new and it don’t be happy !

blue checking is also your friend .if you have a half decent pattern on the drive side which matches the original and back lash in the close to original range and not massive run out in 4 wuadrants of being measured 12 3 6 and 9 o clock positions) that is good enough 

these are horrible to set up that’s why often they clunk clack and make grumbles as often not set properly lol

 

enjoy

and no ….

we do not work on these things !!!!

 

nige

@Hybrid_From_Hell@SnaggerI really appreciate the input. Seeing as how the bearings on the detroit locker as basically siezed, I don't see any way around ordering 4 bearings and honing 2 of them out on the inner dimension. It's a bloody expensive way to go around things as I'm going to use Timken bearings, but I would hate to use an cheaper brand for the sacrificial bearings, get the shims set correctly, install the ATB and new bearings, and the backlash is off. Then it's the whole carrier and bearing pulling nightmare again.   

Edited by mrodey
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I noticed an enormous difference in prices for bearing service kits between Rover and Salisbury diffs.  How much of that difference is reflected at wholesale and how much is at retail I have no idea, but if you can find a local bearings supplier instead of buying through a LR specialist, then they may well be able to get the Timken bearings cheaper.  There is also the option of finding a cheaper but good brand and getting two pairs again, so they will be set up identically, but you would then be limited to that brand in the future.  No difference to being limited to Timken other than added complication in sourcing another pair, going through bearing specialists that stock them rather than the common LR suppliers.

Failing that, ask you local engineering workshops how much they would charge to knock up a couple of dummies.  My guess is that they’ll be more expensive than the bearings, but I may well be wrong.

Since the Detroit and the bearings are buggered, you have nothing to lose by having a go with some very high heat to loosen them, and maybe some long pry bars before you get a decent puller on them.  You may get lucky.

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Take a bearing like the Land Rover head bearing - 539706

We use Timken, 99% of the time, we have over the years where the customer has supplied, used NTN SKF RHP and a few others.

They are NOT all the same dimensions.

We have found that there are very very small differences, which, when you are working on thousandths of an inch can't be the difference between a perfect preload & shim, and lots of messing about with alternate shims and not getting such a good result or smooth action - Esp on a pinion Head / Tail set up

 

When you remove your Salisbury my advice is to buy the SAME brand as the ones in there - the race normally has one number the bearing the other number which make up the set, and the brand as well.

It will help ! Trust me !

Nige

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26 minutes ago, Landrovernuts said:

Nige - are you sure you don’t work on Salisbury axles?!! 🤣🤣

LOL

 

Nope, sold all the special tools and case stretcher and all parts to a company in south Africa a while back

They are a fairly good axle, the centre being the best bit, the rest which is LR ruins the unit. If LR had bought the entire Dana 60 with the 35 spline huge shafts and drive gears and not bodged it - it would have been a winner, just as with the ENV axles, which LR binned the project due to falling out with the others involved in its development.

 

But no, seriously we do not do any work now on Salisbury units.

 

Bear in mind that if you swap the centre out in most cases for "More traction" what goes in will be weaker than what comes out

 

Nige

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