Axle components - What to upgrade first?

[Daan]

I'd say the most cost effective is to use the 2522 CVs, ashcroft 23/24 spline shafts, and build this up with lockers. I was going to fly the flag for Detroit diffs, as this is very much what I prefer, as it is so simple to fit and use. They also used to be half the price from an ARB diff. The ARB diffs have the problem of the air supply being a bit delicate with the rotating piston, and the amount of people that I came across where they stopped working made me choose against them.

Things are a bit different now, the ash locker has a static piston which does not have the reliability problem while being cheaper than a detroit locker, so that is almost a pointless argument.

What I would suggest is look at ebay and the like for a complete set of axles with the ashcroft setup. Most competitors now move away from Land rover axles in favour of Nissan Patrol axles, so surely some land rover axles will turn up at the right price.

[Snagger]

Locking diffs/LSD/ATB would all not only help get up that slope but give a better controlled descent (forwards or reversing after a failed climb).  I don’t know if ETC would be a help or hindrance in that respect - it’d sap power on the climb when it kicks in and could kill speed at the wrong moment, and it wouldn’t engage on the descent - that’d be the ABS trying to prevent a lock up with uneven braking, while the better diff would match the wheel speeds.

[landroversforever]

21 hours ago, Snagger said:

Getting back out of the mire is easier without special diffs - forward motion will stop much sooner and recovery is easier.  That doesn’t help robustness, though.

Exactly why I'd always choose selectable lockers rather than ATB/LSD types. If you're in a situation where you've got help to get out you can try as hard as you like with them engaged or if you're on your own keep them unlocked then you've got them there to help if you do get stuck. As for the 'on road' option if conditions are bad enough to want lockers then you'll not be worrying about breaking traction on one side whilst turning as traction will already be compromised. So if it's just icy, then driving sensibly is going to be far more beneficial than an LSD/ATB.

[Stellaghost]

5 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Exactly why I'd always choose selectable lockers rather than ATB/LSD types. If you're in a situation where you've got help to get out you can try as hard as you like with them engaged or if you're on your own keep them unlocked then you've got them there to help if you do get stuck. As for the 'on road' option if conditions are bad enough to want lockers then you'll not be worrying about breaking traction on one side whilst turning as traction will already be compromised. So if it's just icy, then driving sensibly is going to be far more beneficial than an LSD/ATB.

You can have all the trick diffs you want, they are still not guaranteed to get you out, even if you got stuck before you engaged them, ask me how I know...

I've said it before, I would have well equipped self recovery system before any trick axle gadgets because this will allow you to get out or progress if you want to

Regards Stephen

[landroversforever]

Just now, Stellaghost said:

You can have all the trick diffs you want, they are still not guaranteed to get you out, even if you got stuck before you engaged them, ask me how I know...

I've said it before, I would have well equipped self recovery system before any trick axle gadgets because this will allow you to get out or progress if you want to

Regards Stephen

Oh of course. But if you've not used them to get to that point it is at least another option to help! 

[Snagger]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:53 AM, Stellaghost said:

You can have all the trick diffs you want, they are still not guaranteed to get you out, even if you got stuck before you engaged them, ask me how I know...

I've said it before, I would have well equipped self recovery system before any trick axle gadgets because this will allow you to get out or progress if you want to

Regards Stephen

Yep.  For really claggy terrain, the best thing to have after decent tyres is a rear mounted winch.  Shame that almost all mountings are for the front.  I suppose it’s the rear door or tailgate access that makes a practical mounting so difficult, while there is little impediment to front mounts.  But winches aren’t much use for winter roads and shouldn’t be necessary for mild to moderate unsaved tracks, where a combination of good tyre choice and traction aids may not only help progress but prevent damage to the track.

[Daan]

As far as I am concerned, it is always about going forward, so rear diff always in, the front when necessary, and when you get stuck continue on the front winch.

This is one of the reasons why I favour the Detroit diffs, they always work and when it is twisty you are better of compared to a front selectable locker that would completely stop your ability to steer.

Rear winch is of very little use in trophy, only if it is a down hill that would be other wise suicidal without.

Also, the CV's you can never really trust on a defender with lockers. But the detroit true trac front diff never goes completely solid, and this means your CV's live. I am still on the original (standard used) 2522 CV's that I fitted in 2003.

I pull them occasionally to check for cracks in the bell, but they are still in mint condition. I have been lugging spare CV's to every event for nothing. basically. 

[Ed Poore]

25 minutes ago, Daan said:

I have been lugging spare CV's to every event for nothing. basically. 

The moment you take them out you'll break one though.

[Daan]

Just now, Ed Poore said:

The moment you take them out you'll break one though.

That' s why I keep taking them.

[Snagger]

For competitive use, where you won’t score points for going backwards, I agree entirely.  For “real world” use like work vehicles, expeditions, emergency services and so on, self recovery backwards is more useful than continuing to drag yourself through god knows how far of clag.

Interesting that you prefer an ATB in the front rather than locker, even for the serious stuff where sensitive steering is less critical.

[Anderzander]

From this thread I think was can say that a lockable ATB would be good .. 

[Snagger]

Yep.  I have tried to heavily hint that before in the hope Dave Ashcroft might be reading! 😂. It is, after all, how their LT230 centre ATB diff works.

[landroversforever]

Nudge nudge @ashtrans 

[uninformed]

A mate of mine looked at the idea of a lockable ATB and we think it could be doable. One way would be to make one bearing journal longer and cut a spline on it. Then the rest would be the same as how MaxiDrive actuate and lock axle to hemisphere.

If the bearing journal bore is big enough, the spline could be internal , again how MaxiDrive do the Sals version of their locker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Snagger]

I visited Twenty Ten Engineering  yesterday to discuss my RRC, and the topic of ATBs and the standard late front shafts was broached.  His firm opinion was that unless you have big knobbly tyres and are aggressively off roading, leave the standard shafts in.  He says they have never had one of the big re-engined Range Rovers break a standard shaft, even driven “enthusiastically”.

[ThreePointFive]

I thought this thread would be one of those "what tyres should I fit?" type questions but it seems like it held a bit more interest, glad I asked now...!

Ashcrofts will sell a complete diff with an ATB for £1030 or you can get one with an Ashlocker for £1200, so it's a more difficult decision financially than I stated earlier (not sure where I got my numbers from, before).

I still like the idea of the control of the full locker but the need for additional equipment around it (and the cost of that) balances against the ease of the ATB. I just don't know if I love the inability to tell when it's working...

All of that said, I have an ATB in my LT230 so it would at least match...

I've always thought the point in the half shafts was to act as a fuse to prevent more serious damage 'upstream' (a snapped crankshaft apparently being the pinnacle), or at least the drive flanges.

My plan will be to get complete diffs with ATBs so I can eliminate any tiredness in my existing diffs which also has the benefit of getting new seals and bearings that I can't/don't want to learn how to replace. Then I can do the shafts, CVs, etc. at a later date, probably throwing in a swivel renewal at the same time.

[Escape]

The price difference you stated earlier was for the ATB center vs Ashlocker center I think. For a complete diff you need to add a considerable fixed cost, which means the (relative) price difference becomes smaller. 😉

For what it's worth, I think you've made a good choice! But if finances (and time) allow, I would renew the swivels and upgrade the shafts etc at the same time. Just because you'll be taking things apart to fit the diff anyway.

[landroversforever]

@ThreePointFive have a chat with our own Nigel @Hybrid_From_Hell. He'll build what you need. He's a humble chap and doesn't like advertising his stuff on here. I've no link other thank being a happy customer previously.

[ThreePointFive]

I did think about Nige but my needs are a little less.... Heavy Duty... 

😆

I probably (deliberately) overstated my requirements at the start, but to be clear, this is not a challenge truck but nor is it a road car. It's a difficult middle ground.

[ThreePointFive]

22 minutes ago, Escape said:

😉ut if finances (and time) allow, I would renew the swivels and upgrade the shafts etc at the same time. Just because you'll be taking things apart to fit the diff anyway.

I realised this while writing it out, and factored-in that the swivels take priority over any 'upgrades', but at the moment I don't want to acknowledge the amount of work (or cost) I'm in for. I hate cars.

[Ed Poore]

Nige will build exactly what you want. He's a very reasonable man at discussing options.

My only gripe is I had the super-duper all singing all dancing options top of the line specced partly because I could afford it at the time. Then about two months after he built my second diff he comes up with an even better spec . Not had any issues with what he's built in the slightest whereas I have got friends who've had issues with stuff built by Ashcrofts directly. My understanding was that they were directing people towards Nige anyway to build centres into diffs (may have changed) and perhaps more for the extreme builds rather than run of the mill.

Regardless I'd speak to Nige always even if it is a standard run of the mill build, you'll know its been built to a phenomenal standard then.

[landroversforever]

What Ed says.... he'll talk about options and isn't one to just try and flog you the absolute top spec if its not needed.

[FridgeFreezer]

Also the "supporting" bits around an airlocker needn't be expenive, I believe @miketomcat got by with a cheapy 12v tyre compressor and just powering it on for a few seconds when they wanted the diff locked but far "better" installs are entirely possible without spending out all the money for a posh "on board air" kit if you just need a little fart of air to operate a locker once in a while.

[ThreePointFive]

27 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

 if you just need a little fart of air to operate a locker once in a while.

I see that this would be cheap but it would be also be uncomfortable. For everyone.

[Stellaghost]

57 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Also the "supporting" bits around an airlocker needn't be expenive, I believe @miketomcat got by with a cheapy 12v tyre compressor and just powering it on for a few seconds when they wanted the diff locked but far "better" installs are entirely possible without spending out all the money for a posh "on board air" kit if you just need a little fart of air to operate a locker once in a while.

You could convert an empty gas bottle fill, it up prior to going out to play, should last unless you spring a leak regards Stephen