simonpelly Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) Hi Folks., Put the engine back in and fired it up this evening - Defender 110 300tdi. All good. However, When the engine is running, it is not possible to put into gear. Trying into 1st (but not engaging) causes a slight movement forward. When the engine is not running, it is possible to put into gear. Starting the engine causes it to lurch. Seems to me that the clutch is stuck. Wondering if it got damaged when connecting engine back to the gearbox. Thoughts on next steps of triage? Separating out to take a look is the obvious one but would rather consider other options first. Thanks, Simon... Edited June 12, 2023 by simonpelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 Could you have put the friction plate in the wrong way around, so its hub’s more protruding side is pressed against the flywheel to crank bolts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Sounds like the hydraulics need bleeding out the rod/arm setup is not quite right..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Start with the easy checks: is the pedal actually operating the clutch? I.e. can you see the slave push the fork and does it go far enough? I often use a lever to see if there is any more movement possible to fully disengage the clutch. If it's an hydraulic, the fix should be easy, bleeding might do the trick. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpelly Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 I’m thinking it’s not hydraulic at this point since none of that was touched during the recent work. Wondering if the clutch plate got damaged during refit? I’d like to think that the clutch plate is on the correct way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 was it a struggle to get it onto the box then ? Even so it's unlikely to have damaged the clutch plate unless forced using jacks or long bolts to pull it together. A brief reminder of what lead up to putting the engine in would be helpful. How long was the engine out for ? Hydraulics don't last forever so a more detailed check must be the first thing before hauling it apart. Clamp the clutch flexi and check for a solid pedal if good , remove the slave without disconnecting the hydraulics and clamp the piston fully in and check pedal, it should be solid. Check the pushrod is in place on the thrust arm. If all the above checks out then it probably will need separating... Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 From what you are saying, you can't actually disengage the clutch, ie. if you put it in gear and turn the engine over with your foot on the clutch pedal, it will move the vehicle. Many things could cause this, sadly I don't see any way of doing anything without removing the engine. If you have bled the clutch and the pedal feels ok, it isn't likely to be this. A wrong slave cylinder might cause a problem, as LR sell several different ones. Could be clutch fork, bearing moved or something else. When we rebuilt my brothers 90 we had the same symptoms. We must have had the engine in and out 6 or 7 times. We eventually traced it to being the new pressure plate (HD one from Paddacks, think it was Britpart). It was slightly taller than the other two clutch plates we had laying about, swapping it out for another one solved the problem. Paddocks did eventually refund, but wanted the pressure plate to send back to the manufacturer. Not saying this is what is wrong with yours, but even when you think you are doing all the right things with the right parts, it sometimes doesn't work as should. Was a real head scratcher to try and figure out. Hence taking the engine in and out many times, checking things like the release bearing, was the friction plate in the wrong round and trying many different clutch cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Found the picture, right hand pressure plate was the new HD one, as you can see it was a lot taller, despite supposedly being the correct one for the engine/vehicle. (200Tdi). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpelly Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 It was definitely a struggle to get engine onto the gearbox. Needed to pull it in on the bolts. Tend to find the angle of the gearbox and engine not quite a natural alignment. Simon.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpelly Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 The clutch plate and pressure plate have not been changed either. So confident that there should not be a size mismatch issue as mentioned above. That must have been hard work getting to figure that one out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 do the hyd. checks for peace of mind first then remove the engine I think. Alignment is everything when mating engine and box, time spent getting the engine and box in line is worth gold. I once had to rectify someone else's attempt to fit a box back onto a D1 300 that had been forced with threaded rod and rattle guns and I had to unbolt the pressure plate from the flywheel while levering the box back to give room (can you believe it ?) Once the box was off a puller was needed to remove the drive plate to show the g/box input shaft had re-formed the splines in centre plate by being forced... I'm not suggesting you went that far but showing an extreme case of forcing things causing damage CD also has made a valid point , I got cornered into using a Britpart HD S2a clutch kit earlier this year due to lack of OEM kits and the centre plate was oversize on the drive material thickness by 0.8mm - doesn't sound much but meant the release throw was not enough to fully disengage the pressure plate Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpelly Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 Thanks folks. Hydraulics seem okay. Slowly pulling the engine out again. Taking my time as it's a rather warm day. Simon... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 For future - USB borescopes are under a tenner on eBay and fit through a ~6mm hole. We had a wrong release bearing cause this - the V8 and TDi ones look identical but one is maybe 10mm longer than the other, one way round you'll get zero engagement no matter what, the other way round you get 100% engagement no matter what... that was a long night! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpelly Posted June 14, 2023 Author Share Posted June 14, 2023 Hi Folks, Got the engine out early this morning. My suspicions are that the clutch plate got damaged when fitting the engine back to the gearbox. Suspect a new clutch plate is in order. Would be interested in thoughts. Noticed that Turners do a clutch assembly kit (clutch cover, plate and release bearing) - AP Driveline. Anybody got experience with that. Thanks, Simon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Yeah, scrap. The pulling together with bolts method is often what does this sort of thing.... It should go together relative easy. Worth checking the spline fitment on the input shaft before assembly, they can be a bit tight sometimes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 As above. AP Driveline are fine - OEM spec. As Bowie says check the gearbox spline fit on the new clutch For fitting it have the box in 4th/5th gear and support the bell housing with a trolley jack to aid alignment, bolt face needs to be tilted up from vertical. From there it's a matter of getting an even parallel gap between the BH and flywheel housing and the studs radially aligned with the BH so starting with the engine hanging vertical is worth getting right. It sometimes helps to remove the NS engine mounting rubber for that extra bit of wiggle room As it gets onto the studs rotate the crank back and forth and you will feel it engage and then slide on with manual pressure Steve 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpelly Posted June 14, 2023 Author Share Posted June 14, 2023 Thanks for the tips. New clutch has been ordered. Arriving tomorrow. Will definitely treat this with even more care. Simon... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpelly Posted June 14, 2023 Author Share Posted June 14, 2023 BTW - The Workshop Manual makes reference to the following: "Lubricate splines of gearbox primary pinion with Rocol MV 3." Not sure what type of grease/lubricant this is referring to. Google is not really helping me either. Any thoughts? Thanks, Simon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 We just use whatever grease is at hand. Things always go a bit easier if it's not a dry fit. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzaz Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 4 hours ago, simonpelly said: BTW - The Workshop Manual makes reference to the following: "Lubricate splines of gearbox primary pinion with Rocol MV 3." Not sure what type of grease/lubricant this is referring to. Google is not really helping me either. Any thoughts? Thanks, Simon... ROCOL MV3 Air Bonded Dry Lube, could be molybdenum disulphide grease to avoid any grease contaminating the clutch? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 From my Defender workshop manual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deep Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Lots of good advice there. The thing I would stress the hardest is getting the friction plate in exactly the right place when tightening the pressure plate. Even a tiny bit out causes all the pain and damage ensues. If, like me, you're too stingy to get an alignment tool, you can make one up using a combination of sockets and extensions (and a bit of tape to get that snug fit). You can also eye it up after to make sure. Even so, you might end up a fraction out and the shaft gets caught on the spigot bearing/bush. I recall fixing that by releasing the tension at the last half inch and feeling the gearbox suddenly slide in easily (judicious use of a lever, not possible with every set-up, of course). Which reminds me, check that spigot bearing isn't damaged because it will drag and give you those symptoms if it is... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 I was going to ask if you had used a decent alignment tool, but you just answered that already. That’ll be the issue - sockets and bars just aren’t accurate enough sometimes and it’ll be well worth buying the tool or a scrap input pinion to give accurate alignment of the plates. A scrap pinion is more accurate than any generic tool and hopefully will be free. Ask a gearbox specialist and they’ll likely send you one for postage costs only, or little more than that. If you are buying a whole load of parts from someone like Ashcroft or Turner, then they might throw one in for free (Turners are unlikely to have any, being and engine rather than transmission specialist, but you get the point). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 I've used sockets and tape and all sorts and never had a problem. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 1 hour ago, Bowie69 said: I've used sockets and tape and all sorts and never had a problem. Agreed, but I do also have a Sykes Pickavant tool and several variants of cut off shafts. Anyway the at the point which the shaft splines are trying to engage in the clutch centre boss the spigot nose of the shaft is still quite a distance from the spigot bearing Sometimes it's just a sod of a job for no apparent reason and other times they just push together with no effort or time taken, from experience when it is hard work keeping a cool head is so important Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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