Jocklandjohn Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 (edited) Electro Diesel in Exeter, they came recommended by others online and offline (I'd been working in Cornwall of and on for a year and mentioned my pump issues to a local Land Rover owner in Falmouth who highly recommended them). They were super helpful, efficient and their work was excellent and proved reliable ( FIP overhaul). They've now got back the pump that just came off (that had no stuck pin) which they overhauled and set up years ago, for a test and clean. Edited September 4 by Jocklandjohn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 1 hour ago, stevebus said: Just out of interest who did you use for the FIP? See above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 1 hour ago, stevebus said: Just out of interest who did you use for the FIP? As a matter of principle I try to use my local services as much as possible, it really matters to me to support small business owners as best I can up here. But if service falls below the standards a reasonable person expects I'll go elsewhere. Which is why, after my previous experience with local pump service, I went to Electro Diesel. Then several years later I decided to give the local business another chance and it's gone pear-shaped....again. So.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 I'm not keeping up with this as well as I could, are you getting all the same issues if your running a Standard turbo, I'm working if the Vanes in the turbo are sticking when the engine is switched off due to bad adjustment off the actuator and there needing a bit of a shove to get them moving, then they only get stuck again when you switch the engine off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 Previous turbo had the same issue. Poor performance then a big POOF and somewhat better afterwards. Only discernible difference is the POOF with the new turbo happens sooner whereas with the other it happened under considerable load, but that turbo was a but old and tired and if you recall I had a cracked intake pipe which was losing boost. That *may* seem like an air related issue but the entire air intake is new including filter canister and filter(s) and I've just been in the manifold about 30 mins ago and its all clear in there. The entire assembly for the turbo was replaced so there's nothing of the old kit left on the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 How have you adjusted the actuator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 or done the check of the solenoid operation voltage? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 1 hour ago, Bowie69 said: How have you adjusted the actuator? Haven't touched it - it comes as one complete unit with the VGT - and factory preset so not requiring any fiddling. Its set to the standard 200Tdi setting, just over 1 Bar as I recall from my conversation with Pete Bell (BAS.) As its a VGT the boost gauge will flicker with a stab of the pedal at idle and it all seems to work as intended - the readings on the boost gauge all align with expected values, and the EGT gauge responds similarly as a kind of crude cross-reference,. So running pre-POOF the higher EGT readings (at 1 bar) are coincident with black smoke at the rear. Once past the POOF point EGT's get sensible again and running (at 1 Bar) is 'clean' and only a light haze under load. 1 hour ago, Peaklander said: or done the check of the solenoid operation voltage? Funnily enough I've just been out this afternoon now the rain has stopped, and dismantled the inlet pipes to check the manifold - looks all clear and nothing amiss. I then began looking at the solenoid when the diesel shop called to say the injectors were done so I'm just back in with them. However you mention something I did actually think about last night - if voltage to the solenoid is flaky is it sensitive enough to cause partial operation or is it an on/off and no half measures affair? Today I traced the wiring in the engine bay to the solenoid and it all *looks* ok - not obviously broken or melted, but I know thats meaningless so I will measure it to see - will get the meter on it over the weekend. I'd contemplated that two separate pumps had the same POOF issue and that meant two different solenoids so whats the odds of both being defective, but then realised they share one common factor - the trickery supply... Fresh injectors going in asap so I'll see what that does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 The solenoid would be on/off but with a low voltage I presume it could be partially open. That’s what I was saying the other day but had only suggested keeping the ignition on across a stop/restart cycle. You would pull the wire off the solenoid to stop the engine, reconnect and then turn the key to the crank position to restart. I don’t know if that would really replicate a slow starting alternator. Measuring the voltage at the solenoid after start and before the poof might show something. It sounds like the injectors will be changed before you have chance to do that short check now though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 I can hang fire on the injectors until I experiment with the solenoid. I'm certainly intending doing what you suggested, and if nothing conclusive I thought might then run a wire from the solenoid and connect to a voltmeter in the cab to see whats happening in real time. There is no slippage on the alternator belt, and the unit was renewed last year and afaik is functioning fine. I'm intending incremental checks on this because I'm determined to pinpoint exactly whats the cause! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 Quite possible the solenoid is not getting quite enough to fully disengage, has been mentioned a few times on this thread. Could also just be sticky, and the increasing revs rattle it free, or the alternator getting up to charging voltage forcing it to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmmv Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 If it IS the stop solenoid(btw is anyone running a book on this?) maybe lower voltage is caused by the glow plugs being on, the relay keeps the contact for a bit after the light extinguishes. If you idle it in the drive does it still poof when you set off? What if you give a rev before setting off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 IF the solenoid and low voltage is implicated, don't be surprised if the glowplugs stay on *much* longer than expected. I've seen several failed glowplug relays in the last couple of years - all were original gen parts units. One had welded contacts and was permanently on. One never shut off once activated. One cycled on-off permanently in wet weather (even though it didn't get wet). I don't remember ever having seen one fail before, maybe they are all just getting old, or maybe I've just had a run on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bowie69 said: Quite possible the solenoid is not getting quite enough to fully disengage, has been mentioned a few times on this thread. Could also just be sticky, and the increasing revs rattle it free, or the alternator getting up to charging voltage forcing it to move. I'm presuming "Not getting quite enough to disengage" points to a voltage-side issue. "Just sticky" points to the actual solenoid. Two solenoids though? Unless of course both act similarly 'sticky' with diminished power? 1 hour ago, fmmv said: If it IS the stop solenoid(btw is anyone running a book on this?) maybe lower voltage is caused by the glow plugs being on, the relay keeps the contact for a bit after the light extinguishes. If you idle it in the drive does it still poof when you set off? What if you give a rev before setting off? Worth disconnecting glow plugs for a test? It seems so. I've warmed it up and given it a bit of welly before going out and it still feels 'strangled' then poofs and clears. Mind you I may not be giving it sufficient welly to overcome whatever it is. 1 hour ago, TSD said: IF the solenoid and low voltage is implicated, don't be surprised if the glowplugs stay on *much* longer than expected. I've seen several failed glowplug relays in the last couple of years - all were original gen parts units. One had welded contacts and was permanently on. One never shut off once activated. One cycled on-off permanently in wet weather (even though it didn't get wet). I don't remember ever having seen one fail before, maybe they are all just getting old, or maybe I've just had a run on them. I think it's well worth having a fiddle with the various electrical components in the starting cycle. As suggested earlier working back from the solenoid and checking voltage makes a lot of sense and just ruling out voltage problems at various points and faults in the associated relays. Thanks all for your continued suggestions. Edited September 6 by Jocklandjohn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 I've had 5 difflock switches delivered and every single one of them was broken on arrival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 8 hours ago, Jocklandjohn said: Previous turbo had the same issue. Poor performance then a big POOF and somewhat better afterwards. Only discernible difference is the POOF with the new turbo happens sooner whereas with the other it happened under considerable load, but that turbo was a but old and tired and if you recall I had a cracked intake pipe which was losing boost. That *may* seem like an air related issue but the entire air intake is new including filter canister and filter(s) and I've just been in the manifold about 30 mins ago and its all clear in there. The entire assembly for the turbo was replaced so there's nothing of the old kit left on the engine. To me, this has got to be something wrong in the injection pump, your Variable Geometry Turbo will create boost at lower RPM hence the issue clears sooner with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted September 7 Author Share Posted September 7 9 hours ago, Bowie69 said: I've had 5 difflock switches delivered and every single one of them was broken on arrival. Your point is well made! 8 hours ago, vulcan bomber said: To me, this has got to be something wrong in the injection pump, your Variable Geometry Turbo will create boost at lower RPM hence the issue clears sooner with it. That was my thinking re boost and altered POOF ejection. I'm also leaning towards a fuel side issue. Only thing thats not been changed is injectors, ALL the other stuff has been replaced. Diesel techs that did FIP twice and sent it out with jammed fuel governor pin both times also did the injectors, so who knows whats going on in them. If one (or more) injector had a leak and had dribbled into cylinder might that result in this type of behaviour? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted September 8 Author Share Posted September 8 On 9/6/2024 at 6:39 PM, Peaklander said: The solenoid would be on/off but with a low voltage I presume it could be partially open. That’s what I was saying the other day but had only suggested keeping the ignition on across a stop/restart cycle. You would pull the wire off the solenoid to stop the engine, reconnect and then turn the key to the crank position to restart. I don’t know if that would really replicate a slow starting alternator. Measuring the voltage at the solenoid after start and before the poof might show something. It sounds like the injectors will be changed before you have chance to do that short check now though. Ok on Saturday I disconnected wire to FIP solenoid and connected to meter. Ignition off, reading on meter 0V. Switched ignition on and got 12.6V and then cranked it, reading dropped to 9V or during cranking and I repeated several this times and voltage readings were consistent. Made a length of wire with a piggyback connector to put in the line, with a wire out from the piggyback that I could put the meter on. Reconnected everything so solenoid will be 'live' again. Repeated starting sequence, and with ignition on to fully start engine the reading was again 12.6V and dipped a fraction as engine started then immediately rose to 13.4V or so as the alternator did its stuff and voltage increased with revs up to 13.8 whilst idling. Ran out of time to go driving about as family stuff intruded, but will do the 'wire-off solenoid/ignition still on' test. But from this brief foray into it it seems voltage is ok at solenoid. I'll meter the glow plugs as well and see what other indicators there might be in that department. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 You could also remove the plunger from the solenoid to rule that out entirely. You would have to stall it though, it wouldn't stop on the key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Hunter Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 I don’t understand why we’re now discussing the fuel shut-off solenoid. Surely any problem with that would tend to restrict the fuel flow to the engine, but the pre-poof symptoms are too much fuel for the available air. It doesn’t appear to be a fuel shortage pre-poof. A more learned member can correct me, since every day is a school day. If the air flow is correct throughout something is causing too much fuel pre-poof, and if the fuel is correct throughout then something is strangling the air supply. Monitoring the boost pressure at the manifold pre and post poof may give an indication. I’ve read the entire thread but cannot remember, damn memory again, the status of the air lines to the waste gate and to the FIP. Could either of these be misbehaving? Just my two penneth. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 Initial symptoms are low power (strangulation) then a sudden surge with a ‘poof’ of black smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted September 8 Author Share Posted September 8 3 hours ago, Troll Hunter said: I don’t understand why we’re now discussing the fuel shut-off solenoid. Surely any problem with that would tend to restrict the fuel flow to the engine, but the pre-poof symptoms are too much fuel for the available air. It doesn’t appear to be a fuel shortage pre-poof. A more learned member can correct me, since every day is a school day. If the air flow is correct throughout something is causing too much fuel pre-poof, and if the fuel is correct throughout then something is strangling the air supply. Monitoring the boost pressure at the manifold pre and post poof may give an indication. I’ve read the entire thread but cannot remember, damn memory again, the status of the air lines to the waste gate and to the FIP. Could either of these be misbehaving? Just my two penneth. Mike The turbo and all its components, waste gate, actuator etc are new, the pipe from turbo to top of FIP (to control the pump diaphragm & fuel governor pin is also new in the last 6 months). ALL the air-side piping is new. New air filter canister, filter and intake also. Fuel tank new a couple of years ago, fuel level/lift pipe new a month ago, replaced both fuel feed pipe and return with new hoses, new lift pump (Delphi), new fuel filter, new pipes on spill rail so thats about all the fuel side hoses too. Tried with/without fuel cap on, still the same. 2 hours ago, Peaklander said: Initial symptoms are low power (strangulation) then a sudden surge with a ‘poof’ of black smoke. Thats it basically. It was occurring higher in the rev range with the old turbo and dodgy intake pipework, feeling very 'restricted' and really struggling to get past the POOF point. Now with all the gubbins renewed it's happening earlier, in 2nd gear usually when revs/boost/fuelling build. Then POOF. After that it's noticeably more peppy and free-revving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebus Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 I don't know if this might be an issue, and I'm asking the question here, if you had to much air after the turbo/FIP has done its thing, would you get smoke, excessive smoke? The reason I ask, I'm in the throws of rebuilding a 12L and on having some parts vapour blasted the other week including the intake manifold the core plug at the back of it, part number 524765 core plug had rusted through, not massively but there was indeed an hole, I hadn't run it obviously cos the engine is still in pieces, so dont know if that would create excessive smoke, the guy who did the work spotted it, and I've now replaced it, could that be a problem, its not something you'd think of and with your efforts now John this is now in my mind getting to be something silly that you've missed, not that you've missed a lot here, if that's an idiot conclusion tell me to shut up and I'll butt out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 17 minutes ago, stevebus said: I don't know if this might be an issue, and I'm asking the question here, if you had to much air after the turbo/FIP has done its thing, would you get smoke, excessive smoke? The reason I ask, I'm in the throws of rebuilding a 12L and on having some parts vapour blasted the other week including the intake manifold the core plug at the back of it, part number 524765 core plug had rusted through, not massively but there was indeed an hole, I hadn't run it obviously cos the engine is still in pieces, so dont know if that would create excessive smoke, the guy who did the work spotted it, and I've now replaced it, could that be a problem, its not something you'd think of and with your efforts now John this is now in my mind getting to be something silly that you've missed, not that you've missed a lot here, if that's an idiot conclusion tell me to shut up and I'll butt out A diesel is controlled by its fuel, so can’t really have too much air. Another reason why I really can’t see this being fuel related. Pile of smoke shouts unburned fuel to me = not enough air. But what I can’t understand is why there’s no smoking gun of something on the intake side blocking up. Have you run with a totally different pipe turbo to inlet manifold - bypassing the intercooler and all old intake pipework? What’s the air filter like? I still think there’s something collapsing or some kind of delaminating going on. Are you running a snorkel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebus Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 I think he's done all that from what I've read so no blockage as far as I can gather, I'm probably grasping at straws and only guessing now, god knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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