SteveG Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Hello all I did this post as an answer on another forum and thought that it might be of interest here. I've edited it and added some pics to illustrate too. Feel free to edit/feedback/correct etc as it's just personal opinion. Some of you also may notice some of your pics in there, hope you didn't mind Cheers Steve Defender and Suspension Lifts When people ask about suspension lifts on forums you get a lot of people saying you don't need one and that it's perefectly ok at standard height. This is in part true. A Defender is very capable in standard height and you only need to put a suspension lift on a Defender if you want to fit tyres 33" or higher and/or to help improve approach/departure and breakover angles. Some just do it because they can or they like the look. For this post I'll assume that you need to put on a lift and these are just my personal opinions. Before I start, it's worth noting that there are some drawbacks to lifting your suspension. Your centre of gravity is now higher, most multi storey car parks are now out of bounds and if you are a dwarf you are going to have more of a problem getting in or out. ;) Also you wallet will feel lighter too! You can easily achieve a suspension lift by either fitting longer or heavy duty springs or altering the spring mounts. It's that simple! For springs, Australian company Old Man Emu, OME, seem to have the best reputation for Land Rovers. Unfortunately they are also the most expensive, so springs from the likes of Britpart and Procomp and popular. The most common way of altering the mounts is to fit a spring spacer/packer to base mount... Once you have increased your length of the spring you will have an affect on other items.. Shocks If you increase you spring height by 2" your shocks will have further to travel, by 2" in fact . This will have the effect of reducing the amount of travel/articultaion in your suspension. You can solve this by buying longer shocks or altering shock mounts. A popular make of longer shock is the Procomp ES9000, available in +2", +4" and +5" options. Other are De Carbon, Koni, OME and new to the market is Rough County. The most common way of altering the shock mounts is to fit lower shock chassis mounts, with -2" being the most common. Here's a pic of a front -2" shock turret.. The downside of this is that you have now reduced upward travel by 2" on your shock. Having a shock 'top-out' under compression is a bad thing as it will knacker the shock. :eek: So people fit bigger bump stops to stop this from happening. This is all well and good, but now your axle can't come up as high as it used to and this limits articulation . Some shocks like DeCarbon seem to have greater upward travel by design and do not 'top-out' on a Defender with -2" shock mounts and so don't need extended bump stops, but it is trial and error. Once you start to fit long shocks and have lots of articulation the shock will actually move in an arc with the axle. This can induce fatigue on the mounts/bushes and over time the shock. This is why you see revised mounts from the like of Gwyn Lewis and WhitePeak (QT Services) etc ... It's also why Devon 4x4 introduced their rotating swivel shock mount... Articulation Articulation is the amount the axle will move up and down. It can be affected by length of shock travel, radius arms/bushing, anti roll bars if fitted, spring extension/compression and upward axle travel. As said above if you fit a lift of 2" and don't change your shocks you have just reduced your articulation by 2". Now if say you fitted a 2" lift and +4" shocks you would now have an extra 2" of articulation. When off-roading most people like extra articulation as it aids traction over uneven ground and can aid stability. On a Defender, once you have increased the articulation by 2-3" over standard through shock travel other items will start to limit the articulation. Note that by now you'll also have to fit longer brake hoses as your standard ones risk being ripped off their mountings. On the front of a Defender it is the radius arms and their bushes that limit articulation the most. Articulation and radius arms When an axle drops the angle of the radius arms increases downwards and causes the lower part of the chassis bush to compress... It will only compress so far and once at this point it will stop the axle from dropping any lower. It also knackers the bush quite quickly . To overcome this people fit kinked radius arms to decrease the angle... or jointed radius arms from the likes of QT, Equipe and X-Eng for even more movement... An alternative for the front suspension to achieve even more front end articulation is to change the layout completely and opt for something like a 3-Link set-up from the likes of QT, Safari Guard etc.. To allow more articulation you also have to consider lateral movement and again jointed radius arms or 3/4 Link systems provide greater movement here. On the rear you need to look at lateral movement of the A-Frame joint too... Articulation and Spring extension/compression If you have enough articulation your spring will come out of it’s mounts and when the axle lifts back up it will not reseat properly. This can be overcome in a number of ways... Secure the top and bottom of the spring to stop it from popping out. The downside of this is that if your spring is not long enough under extension it will stop your axle articulating enough. Fit long/softer springs. The problem with softer springs is that they are not great on road and on side slopes when off-road. So people like Max Traction use this route, but with progressive rate springs. These give better handling on and off-road and they have the length to still put downward pressure on the axle to aid traction... Dislocating Springs. You allow the spring to pop out and by using a re-locating device like a cone etc. you guide it back in...Scorpion, Devon 4x4 etc all produce various versions of this and you also have the WhitePeak (QT Services) locators that fit to the axle not the top mount to aid better seating..Some like Gwyn Lewis's have them incorporated into the front shock turrets and on the rear use a spring hook for long articulation. The latest to hit the scene is the helper spring design from X-Eng, X-Flex springs. This is an additional spring that sits inside a spring mount cup on the bottom spring mount. As the axle articulates past the length of the main spring the helper spring takes over the extra length and still provides downward pressure for traction. That way you can fit springs for good on-road/side slope stability yet still have traction at large amounts of axle articulation. Spring compression can also affect articulation. If a spring is too heavy duty it will not compress in length that much and can affect axle upward travel. You also have to be careful with too soft a spring as it can start to bend out under compression and can catch on other components or the wheel/tyre. On the same lines you need to make sure that on upward travel that your wheels/tyres are not fouling on any components.. Articulation and anti roll bars In doing their job anti roll bars reduce axle articulation. If you want more, you either have to remove it or fit detachable axle or chassis mounts. This way you can detach it for off-road use, but still have good handling on-road. Articulation and prop-shafts You may have noticed that the your diffs are not in the centre of the axle. ;) If so you'll know that is the axle articulates more it's going to alter the angle and length of the propshafts. At slow off-road speeds vibration is not so much of an issue but the UJ's binding is a problem. This is why people have fitted wider yoke props or custom props with with bigger UJ's that have a wider operating angle... Suspension lift and prop-shafts When you lift your suspension you alter the angle and the length of your prop-shafts. Lift it too much and you will cause excessive vibrations in the propshafts at road speeds. Also a large lift will cause the UJ's to bind. This can be solved with use of large wider yoke props for the binding and Double Cardan jointed props for the angle induced vibrations. It is often suggested to use the Discovery II front prop as this has a double cardan joint as standard... Note that it has a different flange, doesn't have bigger UJ's/wider yoke and doesn't have grease nipples so longevity can be an issue. Custom made props can overcome this though... Suspension lift and castor correction Castor angle can affect the steering of the vehicle, especially self centering. If you lift your suspension it affects Castor angle. On Defenders a lift of greater than 2" can seem to affect castor angle. To overcome this you can fit castor corrected swivels, radius arm bushes or corrected radius arms. I personally don't see the point of lifting past 2" and would advise that you see how your steering is first before spending any money here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Nice work that man, concise, factual and un-biased. I hope this ends up in the Tech archive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 ideal well in Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Steve, Excellent thread, a request to add a link to it from the tech archive has been sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 but it was already there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Great thread Steve. Thanks for pulling it together. I'll be talking to you sometime this year Steve... I have special needs ! I recon you will be able to help me decide... Ill reveal more when I have the time and inclination... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 No mention at all of the one and only way of lifting LR vehicles....... ORANGE SPRINGS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon W Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Thought i would ask here as there is a post already. My rear prop has gone, so needs replacing, so am looking at: A ) pattern part £60 (but have haven't had good experience with these(sliding joint on the front prop wore quickly.) B ) GKN propshaft for £80 plus +VAT. C ) wide angle prop as i have a 2inch or so lift plus increased articulation. I don't think the prop binds at the moment but i may do further mods to it in the future. So where is good to buy a wide angle prop, I have seen Qt have them and propshaft clinic have a good reputation. As i need to get a new prop ASAP (well delivered within less than 2weeks.) Your experiences welcome Cheers Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 old rangie wide angle props? that what i use anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon W Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Hi James are they the correct length??. I thought the 100inch wheelbase would mean they are to long. I need an easy cheap but good prop to just bolt on. Cheers Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 well they fitted on my 90 and havent changed the rear UJs since the conversion where as before it was every two events or so. the rear seems to compress enough and extend more than the std 90 one, ditto the front. so its owrked for mine to date anyway (although slider in one now has wear!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 IIRC the later TD5 90 props are wide angle, Tony will know more about this though so worth a PM. He may also have one lying around Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 TD5 Defender props are the larger UJ type as per this pic these allow a wider operating angle too. mine was sold on sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon W Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 So would a TD5 90 rear prop fit the rear of mine?? As i can't remember if the transfer box is in the same position on the TD5 as it is on a 90 with an LT77. Also does anyone have a part number for it if it will fit mine Cheers Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 yes it would fit. sorry no MPN, but would be interested to know £££ when you get that far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Nice work, Steve, very thorough !! Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Couple more photo's if they are any use for reference, not as good as an RTI ramp but it gives you an idea of what works well and what doesnt. Personally I hate Britpart lift kits, the springs are ridiculously hard. Worth noting if considering a Britaprt lift kit is that the 2" lift front springs they supply for defenders are as near as dammit as Genuine parts spings NRC9448 (the britpart ones are 5lbs heavier) so you can save yourself 30quid 90, 2" Britpart Lift, 2" lowered damper mounts front and rear, +2" dampers front and rear, rear Paddocks dislocation cones Showing top damper bush and eye being stretched Trailing arm chassis bush under full flex Front travel (for some reason front doesnt travel enough to dislocate) RRC, 2" Britpart Lift, 2" spring spacer lift, 2" lowered damper mounts front and rear, Kenson/Bearmach Trailing arms, +2" dampers front, +5" dampers rear, QT Castor corrected radius arms, rear Paddocks dislocation cones, front Kenson dislocation cones Front Dislocation (misses the cone and reseats at the cones tip rather than base) Rear articulation (when under full droop the springs miss the cones and are bent into the tyre, hence the rust) 90, 2" Britpart/Genuine Parts Lift, Gwyn Lewis Challenge rear damper mounts, Genuine parts front damper mounts cut and re-welded to -1", Gwyn Lewis trailing arms, +2" dampers front, +5" dampers rear, Rear home built axle mounted relocation cones Showing rear articulation Front springs need retaining Top rear damper mount stretching bushes at full droop (needs 15" dampers and wide angle X-Eng A-frame ball joint to realise full potential) Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Blatent spam!!! i've got some really long 90/rangie/disco rear springs for sale! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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