istruggle2gate11 Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 I am having a lot of problems getting my MSnS to work properly, I would like somebody to double check my settings please.... The following are as if viewing the front of the engine, with the engine turning clockwise, its a 36-1 wheel using a ford vr sensor. I am using the following wheel decoding settings: and the following spark settings: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Rog, if you're still having trouble starting it have you tried Bill's suggestion of lowering the cranking advance to 5 or 0 and making the "hold ignition" 1 or 2 rotations to give the engine time to spin up a bit? Edited to add explanation: If you have too much advance while cranking the spark is trying to push the cylinder back down before it's gone past TDC, hence giving the starter motor a very hard time. And the ignition hold stops the ECU from firing any coils until the engine has cranked over X times, which gives the starter time to get the engine spinning a bit before sparks start happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 OK I'll probably get shot down in flames for this, but I had the same problem and did not really understand till I saw the enclosed diagram. With EDIS8 each tooth centre to tooth centre is 10 degrees, and for a V8 you need 5 teeth PAST the missing tooth with enginre at TDC I did have a better disgram - but can't find that and this then should be 10 degrees advance without the map overriding it Waiting for the flamegun any second ........................ Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 You mean this diagram Nige? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 You mean this diagram Nige? Nope ! Although thats like the one I posted the other was sort of clearer for the 2Sparky Mumpty" I am where electrics is concerned ! But re my piccy - don't you think Rogs 1st pic looks wildly different to the one I have posted ie 5th tooth ??? or is MS different to MJ ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 With MS'n'S you don't have to adhere to the same setup that EDIS uses, but it makes life easier for people if you do. Those diagrams do look different, I need more coffee though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 With MS'n'S you don't have to adhere to the same setup that EDIS uses, but it makes life easier for people if you do. Those diagrams do look different, I need more coffee though Arabica and Robusta sir? Ill get the beans crushed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 Rog, if you're still having trouble starting it have you tried Bill's suggestion of lowering the cranking advance to 5 or 0 and making the "hold ignition" 1 or 2 rotations to give the engine time to spin up a bit? 1) Cranking advance been played with 2) Yup, hold ignition been played with. 3) Cranking Dwell been played with (about 6 gives a good spark) 4) Time Based, helps, but no go still. 5) Ive used the wheel decoder physical settings reccomended on the Msefi forum Nige, not so sure about the sketches being so different though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Rog On Mine (viewed from the back) I have only 5 "Teeth" past the gap, whereas you have 7 ? My 5 give me the 50 Degrees required on MegaJolt for me to then have 10 degrees at all advances with the MegaJolt ECU disconnected, yours set on mine would give a very different Advance Lastly ..........and I know very little on this, you have "60" set in the settings for advance in your settings ? I'm sure their are far more on here (actually just about everyone ) who know more than me on MJ and MS....so I'll bow out Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 RogOn Mine (viewed from the back) I have only 5 "Teeth" past the gap, whereas you have 7 ? My 5 give me the 50 Degrees required on MegaJolt for me to then have 10 degrees at all advances with the MegaJolt ECU disconnected, yours set on mine would give a very different Advance Lastly ..........and I know very little on this, you have "60" set in the settings for advance in your settings ? I'm sure their are far more on here (actually just about everyone ) who know more than me on MJ and MS....so I'll bow out Nige Nige, my understanding is that you only need a guaranteed 10° to give you a limp home mode, I dont have that feature as Im not edis, once it dies, it dies! So the seven tooth count should not matter as long as the wheel decoding setting is right. But Ive lost the plot, and need to go get very drunk for a day or two! Then rethink it all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Rog, I have had a hard day putting up with First Great Western trains so bear with me here Your diagrams look this way in my pea sized brain. Using a trigger wheel, TDC is relative to the missing tooth………… so in diagram 1 with the engine at TDC the sensor becomes your TDC mark (as far as the ignition electronics are concerned) and the missing tooth (the sync pulse) is occurring at 70 degrees BTDC.(unless of course, your engine is a Honda R )……………. The 90 degrees arrow you have shown is a red herring and just signifies that the sensor is 90 degrees from vertical (i.e the 3 O’clock position) , although you would still view the TDC point with a timing light as that is the ‘mechanical’ TDC position……………….. I cant work out what diagram 2 is all about, but diagram 3 is true and identical to diagram 1 in terms of the sensor position relative to the missing sync tooth. I need to look at the setup in more detail but I would have thought that the trigger angle would be 70 degrees on your setup…………… Edited to add ................... my EDIS install has been very successful .............. in fact so successful that is has shown some serious short comings in the 25 year flapper system 1) I needed to adjust the flap spring to get anywhere near the right mixture 2) the fuel air is now so non linear that the system runs very, very lean on light throttle / cruise.................. so a full MS fuel install is taking place at the moment. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 Hi Ian, Diagram 2 is a result of the following advice on setting up my wheel and wheel decoding setup, I was just proving to myself that it is setup corectly? BTW here's a good piccy of the trigger wheel setup: As Ive said ^^, I begining to lose the plot! Although I dont think that I have ever adjusted the 60 to 70 - so I could try that (it must be the only thing that hasnt been changed), I cant help but think Im over complicating things now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Rog, Yes, i know how you feel .................. I'm no expert but I'll give all the help I can................because I am sure that I will eventually do my sparks the same way............... I'm out tomorrow, but have a free day (working from home ) on Thursday ............... so I will give it some thought then. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 Rog,Yes, i know how you feel .................. I'm no expert but I'll give all the help I can................because I am sure that I will eventually do my sparks the same way............... I'm out tomorrow, but have a free day (working from home ) on Thursday ............... so I will give it some thought then. Ian Cheers mate, Ive already mentioned to FF that if (when) it gets running, Im going to do a post for muppets (like me) and list the probably obvious errors that Ive made or avoided. Ive just had a reply on the MSExtra forum explaining that when using time based, trigger returns should be zero - pretty obvious when its thought about, will give it a stab tom night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomG Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Hi Rog, Have you seen this post? http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=10908&hl= The triggerwheel settings i posted seem different from yours, although I'm using on-board coil pack drivers (not EDIS), i set the triggerwheel position in an EDIS-compatible way (i think!) Time Based/Trigger Return applies to cranking only, from what i read, i think the trigger return values are used to calculate the dwell (when engine running) so not sure what would happen if they're set to zero. Although the screenshot shows Trigger Return, i have since changed it to Time Based and it does start better. Other thing to check is the polarity of the VR sensor (I tried mine the other way round and it run awful) Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Troubleshooting suggestions from me mate Dave (AKA Top Secret Dave) are: - See if it starts on EasyStart, if it doesn't then you know you have basically zero spark - Check the timing on all four coils to confirm they're all sparking and as they should be - Check the timing on all four coils on cranking - Run less idle advance on the ignition map / less cranking advance as this will make it harder to start as mentioned above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Troubleshooting suggestions from me mate Dave (AKA Top Secret Dave) are:- See if it starts on EasyStart, if it doesn't then you know you have basically zero spark - Check the timing on all four coils to confirm they're all sparking and as they should be - Check the timing on all four coils on cranking - Run less idle advance on the ignition map / less cranking advance as this will make it harder to start as mentioned above -starts and runs fine on the old dizzy setup -all four coils sparking but 1-6 are occasionally intermitant -coil pack tming has been cheaked dynamically whilst runnng on the dizzy -tried just about every setting imagineable but stll doesn't play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Rog, Having given some time to looking through your setup and wheel trigger positions etc………….. I cannot see any reason why this shouldn’t work. I know that you have fired it up on the dizzy and it is OK, however, both Nige and myself found that when we fitted EDIS, the ‘better fatter’ spark arrangement caused the engine to run very lean. I have a misfire problem at the moment when running a light throttle …….. its fine when gunning it ……… and this is due (confirmed also on a gas analyzer) to the mixture running to lean at light throttle, hence the reason why I am going over to a full MS fuel install. Are you sure the fuel cranking settings are good for dizzyless ignition ? ………… a quick spray of easy start down the air intake will soon verify this. Other than that, I guess its time to see what the MSExtra forum guys have to say, as some of these folk had a large hand in the software. I guess that as with any ‘free domain’ software it has its foibles and without the benefit of the code knowledge some issues may not be so obvious. I’m thinking yours is one of those sort of issues that once it’s sorted, you will be kicking yourself (or Dan) for not thinking of the solution earlier …………. all part of the learning process. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 That's a good point Ian - the fuel map is for a dizzy engine, could be worth upping the fuel map / cranking pulsewidth (I would do this 1st) by a few % to see what happens. The RV8's like to idle rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted March 2, 2007 Author Share Posted March 2, 2007 Dans staying away from this one mate, its a petrol issue, trust me, if Ive heard "fit a squeezal" once, Ive heard it a thousand times! mmmmmmmm - Kicking Dan, sound like a good game to me - Will have practice run tonight if you wish But seriously, If Ive done something, Ive checked it and Dan has double checked it, but after a recent trigger log, it seems I might not be seeing the missing tooth! So, new VR sensor on its way, then will try your PWM suggestion also, although the o2 reads its running nice at tickover. I have no doubt, that onnce the gremlin is slaughtered, all this pain will go away - just soon I hope!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Dans staying away from this one mate, its a petrol issue, trust me, if Ive heard "fit a squeezal" once, Ive heard it a thousand times! Yes, I would have expected that from a diesel bonehead :lol: The reported mixture may be OK at tickover ....................but you may need to increase the cranking pulse width by a few % to get it to start reliably. There are a couple of threads on the MSExtra forum where bad or no starting has been fixed by this. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 So your missing tooth has gone missing , I reckon Dan has spotted your wheel and "fixed" it for you by sticking the missing tooth back in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted March 2, 2007 Author Share Posted March 2, 2007 So your missing tooth has gone missing , I reckon Dan has spotted your wheel and "fixed" it for you by sticking the missing tooth back in Probably right Fridge, he does get a bit twitchy when there's nothing to weld! Ian, Im going to try the PW on cranking - wkyi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Other than that, I guess its time to see what the MSExtra forum guys have to say, as some of these folk had a large hand in the software. I guess that as with any 'free domain' software it has its foibles and without the benefit of the code knowledge some issues may not be so obvious. This isn't in any way unique to Free Software - some of it is poor, some of it is very, very good. Commercial software is no different in this respect (other than, in my experience, commercial deadlines and the knowledge that no-one outside the company will see the source code tends to lead to worse code, not better, all other things being equal). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 -all four coils sparking but 1-6 are occasionally intermitant No-one else has picked up on this, maybe for good reason (there are others contributing to this thread who know Megasquirt far better than me), but could this indicate a knackered coil pack? Or maybe a dodgy connection to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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