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Piggin V8s and water......and Cr^p spark...VIEWS ??


Hybrid_From_Hell
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Hello peeps

Right

we all know Rover V8s do NOT like water,

....as I found out AGAIN today winch recoverying a mates tractor that feel into a stream (long story)

(As was getting the V8 running again after it got wet - no engine - no big 'thing' front hydraulic PTO winch to get tractor out -

HOT NEWS FLASH TIP :WD40 shares will leap over next couple of days - (90 V8 and tractor back in respective homes tho, even tho took a while :huh: )

So......................

I have over the years tried a number of the 'normal tricks',

and Jon W (here on the forum) has done these ..............and a shed load more, but...............

his V8 is hopeless in water, ...........mine is often equally just as poor.............. if not worse in water and also poor at starting when hot, ...............the spark is frankly Cr^p

This I have checked out with the 'Guru of V8s' Mr Eales, whos engine I have -

the 4.5 flapper system I have he said was poor when he built these ...........but at the time it was what LR had as.................................... "HAHAHAHA Cutting edge technology".

This system is the electrionic dizzy and the amp behind the coil system, hopeless.

This coupled with poor starting and weak spark has got me going.................... :angry:

I have come up with a couple of options....and I AM trying option 1 and maybe then if not ok another route ...........I will have a V8 thats runs without stopping ...........when someone 480 yards away opens a bottle of water to have a drink on a hot day FFS

Option 1.

I 'aint letting on much ......

but have just bought a 2nd hand Buick HEI unit from ebay USA maybe I can sort this out, ...........

those who have some idea what I'm on about will know what I'm thinking, ...........

it might , or it might not work, .................

but for a few bucks I'll see.

I fitted one of these 2 a chevy racer years ago it WOULD run under water, ....its if I can get it to fit :blink:

If not then :

Option 2.

V8 new Dizzy - DUI, came across this ................

Anyone have views or know about it :

http://www.performancedistributors.com/gmssdui.htm

and a piccy here to :

P6240010.jpg

Option 3.

3. Aldon Unit and flamethrower coil, manecor leads etc

Option(s) 4.

Other options I should think about ?

NON option 5.

and no not a chip fat burning oilier thankyou :lol: -

much as tho they are the business water wise they are not my forte.....

shame actauuly, ................

make a 200 TDI sound like a tuned V8 and I'll have one :lol: sad yes I know I am !

So...............Discuss ...........and post thoughts please !

Nige

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Options:

1 -Megaspit

2-Get Scrumps to wire it up the last one he did is the Very best I have ever seen near/in/around H2O

3-Fit a TDI

4-fit a TD5

5-fit an 8274

6-buy a tirfor

1. Well done you beat FF to it, only thought is MS is EFI ECU etc, thats all ok I just have Dizzy spark water probs ?

2. Tell more ...............what did he do ?

3. Yes ok, I know but Wash you mouth out..... and come over here [smack] .....now go away :lol:

4. Now you being just plain silly :P

5 & 6 not needed :

FW.jpg

Nige

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1. Well done you beat FF to it, only thought is MS is EFI ECU etc, thats all ok I just have Dizzy spark water probs ?

You don't need to use Megasquirt for the fuelling unless you want to (although I would imagine it's a considerable improvement on a flapper system) - you can just use it to control the timing for a Ford EDIS ignition system. This is what I have - sat in a box in my garage... - but it will be going in Gemima just as soon as other things stop breaking for long enough :angry:

All in it's cheaper than a new standard dizzy (well, cheaper than the later type with built in electronic ignition - not sure about the sort you have), and has been run under water.

Obviously I can't personally vouch for it just yet, but it's definitely worth a look.

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OK - an unusually low-tech solution (for me that is!)

Not tried this myself - but seen it in action.

Whan your engine is next sat in water - and still running, open the bonnet.

You will see a huge fountain of water being dragged up by the fan belt. Normally this hits the bonnet and covers everything! This is why the water does not need to be all that deep to stop a V8.

The solution was one of the hairy plastic draught excluders sold for letter-boxes. This was fitted with the fan belt passing through the brushes. Although it did not stop all the water - it reduced the volume to a trickle!

This was on a vehicle where the water was lapping the exhaust manifolds (lots of steam!) but it was still running!

Si

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The solution was one of the hairy plastic draught excluders sold for letter-boxes. This was fitted with the fan belt passing through the brushes. Although it did not stop all the water - it reduced the volume to a trickle!

You'd need half a dozen of them on Gemima - there're flippin belts going everywhere* :angry:

* - okay, I exagerate - but there are four separate belts on there, all of them in close proximity to the dizzy. And there isn't a great deal of space for fitting letter boxes in there...

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unless your engine isn't running

:ph34r:

"Dead" right Tonk, hence why this has to be sorted !......either that or small trailer with WD40 in tow

:angry:

Can you exlain more of the MS Dizzy route ?....what is needed, how does it work, how made / connected parts usded ?, probs and things that need to be worked at etc ? ?

FRIDGE WHERE ARE YOU B) ??? your miassing a MS Opportunity here ?

Anyone know about these DUI dizzys posted above ????

Nige

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why not go distributorless?

megajoltlite

crankpulley toothed wheel + pickup ( could even do that within the dizzy itself )

EDIS blocks within a water tight unit

magnecor leads

all sealed from condensation and water . . . . simple

You don't need to seal the EDIS stuff in waterproof containers - it's apparently quite well enough enough sealed anyway - runs quite happily under water (I linked from an earlier post in this thread - can't be bothered going and finding it again ;) ).

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Let's take a few steps back. You have listed solution but do you know what exaclty is the problem(s)?

You are pretty sure you are loosing the spark so which is the place where is dies:

- distributor, amp/efi, leads to coil, lead from coil to cap, leads from cap to plugs etc.

When you squirted with wd40, did you do it methodically? If so, which item after squirting let the engine run?

I think it is safe to safe to say water/steam is getting in somewhere and provide a more favourable part for high voltage to take; I would guess this is the HT part rather than the LT.

One path is to prevent water getting to the susceptible parts, the other is to improve the HT section by throwing out bigger sparks although I suspect the latter will have a limit.

As an aside, I powered washed off all the sand from Sunday and then lifted the bonnet to my spotless engine messy so gave that a quick burst with the karcher, dizszy, K&Nsthe whole lot. Then thought, hmmm, will it start, turned the key and it fired up so it can be done although it problaby was not as bad as your case.

you may want to run the engine and use a small garden spray thingy to spray water over various componentets to see which one stops the engine; may help or may not.

I have considered sealing off the underside ofthe engine bay with a big palccy place but I feel this may restrict air flow out plus will tento make the front end float in water (I probably would not wade that deep; maybe just the front part or a tray to enclose the front part of the engine (crank etc) may be enough.

There are many small thinkgs that can be done and somewhere there is a thread that lists these.

IMO the most successful would be to get rid of the HT leads by fitting individual coils onto the plugs (I've looked on ebay and I think renault/peugeot do this type of thing - fits directly onto the plug that can be picked up quite cheap - but bot sure if there is enough room for them)

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IMO the most successful would be to get rid of the HT leads by fitting individual coils onto the plugs (I've looked on ebay and I think renault/peugeot do this type of thing - fits directly onto the plug that can be picked up quite cheap - but bot sure if there is enough room for them)

Later RV8s used coil on plug (COP), I think (P38a?) so there must be room for them. You would, of course, need something to drive them. EDIS uses wasted spark (each coil fires two plugs, one of which will be on its exhaust stroke), so isn't suitable for COP. Presumably you could fit the ECU from a later vehicle, but given how integrated the electronics got that might be a huge task. Megasquirt can decode a crank position trigger and control COP directly, but I think the code is still experimental and I've no idea how proven it is. If I had an off road toy I'd be tempted to try it, but as Gemima is my only car I'm going with the tried and tested approach.

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P38 uses a coil bank and wasted spark setup. It doesn't use coil over plugs.

coil bank sits behind the plenum tucked under a recess of the bulkhead. You'd be drowing the engine completely before water touched the coil bank.

Okay - maybe it's only post RV8 land rovers that have coil on plug (or maybe they don't at all, and I'm talking complete rubbish...it's been known :P ).

I'm mounting the coils on the side of the plenum, opposite the air intake. Not quite as well protected, but there's no room round the back on a classic. At least they're as high up as possible, and not as much in the firing line as the dizzy.

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another atttack if preventing water reaching the parts it shouldn't is a means fo getting rid off it. Somehting alon the lines of some plastic conduit around the plug leads sealed at each end with a connection to a compressed air supply. this has been tried out on a diffy cap IIRC.

the hard bit is to find the most susceptible component and work on that.

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Why do option 1, 2, THEN 3?

3 would be first on my list as it's least effort and seems to basically do what the HEI/DUI does but without being big, ugly and American.

MS will do ignition, fuel, or both. Currently easiest is to use Ford EDIS but the new boards are already being added to to do away with the need for most of the EDIS bits other than the crank sensor and coil pack.

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P38 uses a coil bank and wasted spark setup. It doesn't use coil over plugs.

coil bank sits behind the plenum tucked under a recess of the bulkhead. You'd be drowing the engine completely before water touched the coil bank.

Done that before on a P38 :P:P:)

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Why do option 1, 2, THEN 3?

3 would be first on my list as it's least effort and seems to basically do what the HEI/DUI does but without being big, ugly and American.

MS will do ignition, fuel, or both. Currently easiest is to use Ford EDIS but the new boards are already being added to to do away with the need for most of the EDIS bits other than the crank sensor and coil pack.

Hiya Jon,

To answer your (and others posts) here goes

Why do option 1, 2, THEN 3?

Not exactly what I'm up to, they are all just tjoughts with no particular order except 1 as I have won a HEI off e-bay USA and am going to have a look.

Reasons for this are

Know they are massive in the spark dept

Waterprrof virtually

Simple very well bulit and easy to get bit for / reliable

Could do what I wnat at little money, but maybe loads of lathe work :lol:

Option 2 , maybe a 2005 version of the above, is it as good as I am lead to belive, and its a nuts bolts and eassy fit ?

3...well reasonably easy and mid price oprion, but unsure as to how good.

Then theres MS, fair bit of work, but possiblity

So, looking for options and KNOWN knowlesdge as to options etc, and fridge and MS is well known !....its on the lust fridge what more can I say :lol::P , make you a happy man :o MS Eales a FF 1st ? :lol:

02GF74, the spark is as good as you'll get from this system, it is a poor system, and don't forget the spark is not running a 3.5, but a 4.5 V8, 1000 cc bigger, more compression and fuelling and basically it has all new genuine parts, .........and Mr Eales himself has told me himselg that the spark was always poor on this system he built...........

I have just won the HEI so Option 1 will get a look in, but it may or may not be the answer, go to have a look at my idea for a few quid....

so, anyone have knowledge on DUI system ?

Nige

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P38 uses a coil bank and wasted spark setup. It doesn't use coil over plugs.

coil bank sits behind the plenum tucked under a recess of the bulkhead. You'd be drowing the engine completely before water touched the coil bank.

My Discovery has the "Thor" type engine with the same setup - coils round the back. So far round the back, in fact, that I think you've probably got to take the engine out to change them :ph34r: fortunately no ignition problems in 3 years (he said foolishly :ph34r: )

Another drawback of the wasted spark system is apparently if you take a plug lead off to check for a misfire, because the spark hasn't got a plug to pop off in it can go back through the engine ECU instead (as spark timing etc is driven by the engine ECU on a Thor) and I guess that means £££££ I think about £800 last time I looked! So I guess the same would happen if a plug lead fell off.

I've made mine splutter a bit going through water too fast :unsure: but generally it seems to be a much better system and the V8 runs perfectly without having to mess around with anything.

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Nige you may be able to try the military leads and plugs off 24 volt LRs. These are semi waterproof but at the plug end are sealed, it cant be beyond the ingenuity of people here to come up with something for the other end. Just a thought.

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the armoured snatch land rover i have at work uses these plugs, leads, and dizzy cap

the dizzy used for v8 engines is the 35DML8 which is a standard dizzy used for 3.9's just a different cap

and the coil has a plug on cap thing to the satndard coil

Nige I found this. I have some plugs and leads if you want to see them. The leads are a standard lead in a metal sheath and could be waterproofed quite easily. Looks like you only need the cap for a standard dizzy.

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