najw Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 So, we've established its not an MOT issue. :D If its Construction & Use how is this challenged? Would it be the same as building a hybrid ie changing certain mechanical parts resulting in the need for an SVA? Is it up to VOSA to spot it and query it or can an MOT Tester refuse to test & refer to VOSA Finally was the aforementioned Citroen full hydro and if so can someone clarify the model details Thoughts please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MogLite Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Finally was the aforementioned Citroen full hydro and if so can someone clarify the model details I was thinking of the SM, although if that doesn't bear fruit. The DS came before it, and the CX was more mainstream, followed by the XM. Anything newer is just bland french tat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Anything newer is just bland french tat. with the exception of the design classic that is the 405 turbo diesel of course Andy? pretty much every car on the challenge scene fails the construction and use regs! if something isnt there to be tested then the MOT tester cannot fail it. He isnt there to make an engineering assessment - he is there to follow the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 I was thinking of the SM, although if that doesn't bear fruit. The DS came before it, and the CX was more mainstream, followed by the XM. Anything newer is just bland french tat. Lovely thank you... From there go to HERE from which extract " * Fully hydraulic (no direct mechanical connection between the steering wheel shaft and the steering pinion during normal operation)." Gentlemen, we have a precedent :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MogLite Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Lovely thank you...From there go to HERE from which extract " * Fully hydraulic (no direct mechanical connection between the steering wheel shaft and the steering pinion during normal operation)." Gentlemen, we have a precedent :D Glad to be of service Where is the smiley for "Takes a bow" ? Jez - not sure about the 405 - I've never seen yours - I've seen the dirt and groo that surrounds it, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the car underneath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast5680 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Lovely thank you...From there go to HERE from which extract " * Fully hydraulic (no direct mechanical connection between the steering wheel shaft and the steering pinion during normal operation)." Gentlemen, we have a precedent :D what about this then? "When there is no pressure available to operate the ram, the steering wheel will move the rack by normal mechanical means" syurely this means there is a mechanical setup along side the hydraulic system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 From the wikipedia article it says: Fully hydraulic (no direct mechanical connection between the steering wheel shaft and the steering pinion during normal operation). Which suggests they retained some sort of linkage, no matter how flimsy, should the pressure fail. Doesn't explicitly state it though, anyone know anything about citroens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast5680 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 From the wikipedia article it says:Which suggests they retained some sort of linkage, no matter how flimsy, should the pressure fail. Doesn't explicitly state it though, anyone know anything about citroens? this is how the DIRAVI system works it shows a mechanical link to the rack and explains how the hydraulics work citroen steering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 This as stated above is not an MOT issue but construction and use which seems increasingly to be driven by Brussels to provide a level playing field across the EU for the construction and sale of vehicles. Al the references I can find suggest that pure hydro (or electric) are currently out of scope, except for type O vehicles which as best I can gather are trailers. That said there is pressure coming from several groups to remove the mechanical components from the cabin space (such as the steering wheel and brake pedal) which requires these rules to be amended. No indication of timescales though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 That's a bit unfortunate! Think what I might do is use one of the danfoss torque multiplier type steering pumps (Useful link by the way!) And build a box which is glued to the back of the steering box. Two handbrake cables then go from the box to each front wheel. The cables need not actually do anything, the box can contain air - but they will be a visible, physical link between the steering wheel and the wheels. You are not required to reveal how it works - even for an SVA. So long as it does steer with the engine off, I doubt they would look much further! If it does fail when I'm on my way to Wales on the M4 - there's always the fiddle brakes! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted March 22, 2007 Author Share Posted March 22, 2007 A Danfoss pump will still turn the wheels with the engine off - albeit with a fair amount of effort That's a bit unfortunate!Think what I might do is use one of the danfoss torque multiplier type steering pumps (Useful link by the way!) And build a box which is glued to the back of the steering box. Two handbrake cables then go from the box to each front wheel. The cables need not actually do anything, the box can contain air - but they will be a visible, physical link between the steering wheel and the wheels. You are not required to reveal how it works - even for an SVA. So long as it does steer with the engine off, I doubt they would look much further! If it does fail when I'm on my way to Wales on the M4 - there's always the fiddle brakes! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Abel Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Well im happy now! At lest when I take my Truck in for an MOT in the next few weeks now i know ive not got that to worry about. Hydro Steering is the way forward and i can see more and more people using it on there truck's, We are way behind the USA in off road vehicle design and to have rules restricting use from using hydro would hinder the sport Progressing. Thanks Neil, look for ward to seeing you at Round 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 A Danfoss pump will still turn the wheels with the engine off - albeit with a fair amount of effort is that important? a fully hydro setup will turn the wheels with the engine off, but there's still no mechanical link! Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way- perhaps we should find out who could possibly complain about full hydro, be it VOSA, DVLA, police etc etc and write to each and every one to get a ruling? or is this hoping for too much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted March 22, 2007 Author Share Posted March 22, 2007 is that important? a fully hydro setup will turn the wheels with the engine off, but there's still no mechanical link!Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way- perhaps we should find out who could possibly complain about full hydro, be it VOSA, DVLA, police etc etc and write to each and every one to get a ruling? or is this hoping for too much? Hence the search for a precedent, so at least there is some defence. As I see it now the only problem would be if an MOT tester refused to test the vehicle as it didn't meet Construction & Use and refer to to some other authority. But as I questioned earlier who would they refer it to and what powers would they have? Although ignorance is no defence, I think it better that they come looking rather than put it under their noses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathtub Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Hence the search for a precedent, so at least there is some defence.As I see it now the only problem would be if an MOT tester refused to test the vehicle as it didn't meet Construction & Use and refer to to some other authority. But as I questioned earlier who would they refer it to and what powers would they have? Although ignorance is no defence, I think it better that they come looking rather than put it under their noses! I think the point we are all skirting around {although ive just fitted 4 wheel Hydro steer} is we can be as clever as we like until we kill somone & the truck gets impounded Then he who gets the best solicitor wins i supose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 not if you can brandish letters attesting to the legality of your vehicle then you're scot free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Well, you're as scot free as you would be with any other mod you'd done - if you plough a modded vehicle into something/someone they're going to look at everything closely - while there is the question of the "SVA-ability" around full hydro, no-one seems quite as bothered about suspension mods that alter the handling, mud tyres that are of dubious handling / speed rating / approval on-road, etc. etc. What I'm getting at is that plod are just as likely to be interested in your dislocation cones (for example) as they are in your steering system. Full hydro passes an MOT, so do all the other mods on your truck, but how many would pass an SVA? Why does anyone seem as bothered by all the other stuff we do to our vehicles being able to pass an SVA or similar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Smith Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 I think the point we are all skirting around {although ive just fitted 4 wheel Hydro steer} is we can be as clever as we like until we kill somone & the truck gets impounded Then he who gets the best solicitor wins i supose If it doesen't conform to construction and use then you are automatically not insured, so best not ram that prius off the road till you find out then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 that would also count with all modified vehicles that fall into the criteria demanding an SVA - look out challenge lads!! on a related tip has anoyone ever had an engineer (not a loss adjustor) come down to inspect thier vehicle after a crash? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 All this may be true, but why does an insurer agree to insure after having seen the mods of a vehicle with pictures and a specsheet of what youve got. Peter Best is good like that and agreed to everything I have, without an SVA. Off course Peter Best is only the middleman, but do they tell the insurer what their customer has got, or do they just take the money and claim ignorance once the s**t hits the fan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 True enough, usually if something causes them concern they'll ask for an engineer's report, strangely this seems to happen more with engine swaps than anything otherwise when you tell them your list of mods they are accepting it at face value. I guess if something was obviously bodged up they'd try to wheedle out of a claim but unless it was horrific or you hadn't told them you'd done it they would be on shaky ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Been there done that....and got the certificate.. I thought is was going to be a nightmare, but it was easier than I thought, now that might be (doubt it) that I read and re read, and did everything as far as possible to pass....this was a commericial though now at the same time a Westfield was going through a passenger SVA..and boy was he getting a going over So you might find another vehicle with....whatever modification ....but does this mean that in the eyes of VOSA you would require a SVA because of a major change from the original type approval of YOUR vehicle, and is it insured with that modification as has been said just because you have a MOT does not mean you comply with construction and use, your insurance may refuse to pay out in the event of a accident and say you were driving without a valid insurance....minefield I had no choice but to go through it, but you need to be aware of the consequences of burying your head in the ground its up to the individual to make that decision Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 All this may be true, but why does an insurer agree to insure after having seen the mods of a vehicle The onus is on the owner to ensure to vehicle complies with the law/construction and use...not the insurance company... look at it this way...your house is insured, but it don't mean that when you fitted a new bathroom, it complied with building regulations does it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Knowing the legal system in the UK Daan the insurers will take your money and then leave you in the cold. if Network rail can repeatedly get away with corporate manslaughter (allegedly legal people, allegedly!) you have to wonder what (if any) the consequences would be for either the driver or the insurance company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Been there done that....and got the certificate.. I thought is was going to be a nightmare, but it was easier than I thought, now that might be (doubt it) that I read and re read, and did everything as far as possible to pass....this was a commericial though now at the same time a Westfield was going through a passenger SVA..and boy was he getting a going over So you might find another vehicle with....whatever modification ....but does this mean that in the eyes of VOSA you would require a SVA because of a major change from the original type approval of YOUR vehicle, and is it insured with that modification as has been said just because you have a MOT does not mean you comply with construction and use, your insurance may refuse to pay out in the event of a accident and say you were driving without a valid insurance....minefield I had no choice but to go through it, but you need to be aware of the consequences of burying your head in the ground its up to the individual to make that decision This was really my point regarding trying to SVA as an agricultural vehicle - most of the vehicles anyone on this forum that will need an SVA will have more in common with a tractor than a car anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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