Anglo-Frenchman Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 As a non-UK resident I have been interested in the developments regarding Gordon Brown's attempts to tax the owners of larger vehicles of British roads. Clearly the media have enormous problems discerning between those vehicles which are high consumers of fuel and those which have a four-wheel-drive transmission-clearly in the case of the Fiat Panda 4x4 this is something of a conundrum. Having watched this article on the news, my wife turned to me and said is our Defender gas guzzler? I have to say that I was not actually able to answer this with any degree of accuracy as I have absolutely no idea what constitutes a gas guzzler and what does not. Having owned a V8 110 which I'm sure actually drank fuel while it was parked I'm quite sure that this was indeed Gordon Brown's arch nemesis. I'm not so sure about my 200 TDI which are regularly returns over 30 miles to the gallon so perhaps I could open a debate on where exactly the line is drawn between those vehicles which are considered to be guzzlers and those which are not. Let the games begin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 My 1.1 pug 106 is more of a gaz guzzler than my 4.2 V8 90 simply because it does more miles. Pug cost costs £110 per yer to tax verses £175 for the V8, but as the pug does 10k miles at 45mpg and the V8 only does 1k miles at 12mpg the pug puts out about twice the amount of CO2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicam Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Gas Guzzlers, per se, only exist in the minds of journalists and politicians - i.e. people that don`t live in the real world and actually believe the things they say or write. I suspect the phrase originally came from America (the clue is the word "gas") where single figure mpg was not unusual in years gone by. My other concern is the adoration of hybrids, such as the Prius. I`m sorry but they are driven totally and completely on petrol like a lot of other cars. Any electricity generated, stored and used to drive the car is derived from burning petrol. It is not magic - and a lot of more conventional cars (mostly diesels) are actually more economical in real world use. And don`t get me started on what it costs to manufacture the extra batteries, motors etc. and when it comes to disposing of them at the end of their (limited) life................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I always argue with people (well, SWMBO at the mo, as no one else had broached the subject with me yet!! ) Gas Guzzler well, my 90 and 110 don't run on "gas", they run on diesel. they neither have propane injection nor are they petrol engines converted to run on LPG. I'd just suggest that whoever is spouting the stupid phrase to bu@@er off and use their "Americanisms" somewhere else. and these same folk who instantly assume that because my vehicle resembles a container, that it must obviously have an engine that kills small children and stamps on sand-castles (OK, my 90 with a 300Tdi does smoke a bit but thats only coz i've got the fuelling screwed right up!) Both of these vehicles (Td5 and 300) pass the MoT test every year, so they must be within the tolerances that the gov't set, right? so how are they so bad? maybe these same people should go look at some busses (especially the ones in london) that date back the the 60's, stop and start every few hundred yards and are pretty smokey. (ok, same argument could be used for a 1960's LR i suppose... but at least there are a LOT of old LR's out there, which means that "we", the buyers, didn't have to go and get a new shiny one that used umpteen thousands gallons of water to make, and didn't end up with 2 more vehicles on the road instead of 1. rant over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Every bus operating in London has a CRT filter to reduce particulate - even the 1960s Routemasters. The Prius does run on petrol, but uses electric power to store energy so it can be generated in the most efficient way from the engine, rather than supplied in a less efficient way to meet the demand of the driver. The proof is in 45mpg from the Prius, a decent size family car - it's an alternative approach to diesels. The same technology on diesels shows a smaller gain, but 30% on top of a 60mpg Passat etc will be worth having. The same is true for hybrid buses (every London bus will be hybrid by 2012 too), and since they can use regenerative braking to store energy during stop-start, they can see a 30% fuel economy benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 The proof is in 45mpg from the Prius, a decent size family car Sandbag has a 12 year old Rover which does that on petrol alone. It has no bank of special batteries which pollute during manufacture or need replacing. I will bet it weighs less than a Pious. I have a Landrover which would run on 100% bio-diesel and produce 0 net carbon emissions - but I cannot buy biodiesel locally as it is uneconomic for anyone to make it with the duty levied on it by the government. I could drive 40 miles to buy it I suppose... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Every bus operating in London has a CRT filter to reduce particulate - even the 1960s Routemasters. The Prius does run on petrol, but uses electric power to store energy so it can be generated in the most efficient way from the engine, rather than supplied in a less efficient way to meet the demand of the driver. The proof is in 45mpg from the Prius, a decent size family car - it's an alternative approach to diesels. The same technology on diesels shows a smaller gain, but 30% on top of a 60mpg Passat etc will be worth having. The same is true for hybrid buses (every London bus will be hybrid by 2012 too), and since they can use regenerative braking to store energy during stop-start, they can see a 30% fuel economy benefit. The through life costs of the Prius make it one of the most polutive vehicles ever to drag its ugly mug onto the roads.. it might be economical when being driven, and may emitt very little C02, but the masive amounts of engergy used during its manufacture, and end of life disposal make it an absolute shocker... the other thing that some people seam to overlook (and I know you know all about this Jon, being an engineer) is that energy cannot be majically created by Man, or his machines... we can't create energy, only store it, then change its form... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrover Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I think the definition of a Gas-Guzzler is anything which is ok for government officials to be driven around in but is unacceptable for the populace to drive. is what Greenpeace seem to think constitutes a Gas-Guzzler.Edited: Although God seems to not agree with Greenpeace... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisV8 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Ho Ho what was he driving then made by the same Company as the much vaunted Prickus then !!!! It's all been said by others a Gas guzzler is whatever Gordon thinks he can extract Tax from under the pretext of being green by taxing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MJG Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Ho Ho what was he driving then made by the same Company as the much vaunted Prickus then !!!!It's all been said by others a Gas guzzler is whatever Gordon thinks he can extract Tax from under the pretext of being green by taxing it. Amazing that many people who I told today that I was getting a Series III Land Rover said "oh one of those gas guzzlers - you're going to get hit in the budget tommorrow'' Ignorance is bliss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minivin Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 What is a Gas Guzzler? Any of the teenagers around my area, took me to visit seven shops and garages before I could find a refill bottle of lighter gas for my soldering torch little buggers are inhaling the stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 The through-life carbon cost of a Prius is poor compared to a standard vehicle (anyone have any numbers on this, or would it spoil a decent argument?) but the technology needs to develop, and it needs volume manufacture to push this. I imagine steam traction engines looked like a lot of steelwork for 4mph compared to a horse and gin... the other thing that some people seam to overlook (and I know you know all about this Jon, being an engineer) is that energy cannot be majically created by Man, or his machines... we can't create energy, only store it, then change its form... ...but you can release it more efficiently. Consider: an engine gives best brake specific fuel consumption (grammes of fuel per kilowatt-hour) at wide-open throttle. Hybrids aim to run the engine at this condition, take the energy required for propulsion and put the rest into a battery for a while, then switch the engine off and run electric. The overall cycle efficiency is greater than running the engine the whole time on part throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrode Finger Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 The gas guzzler statistics are rubbish!! IIRC, a few years ago, i read statistics that pointed to the fact that 90% of all cars on the raod inthe UK were between 1000cc and 2000cc. If you want to attack the car you have to attack the biggest 'problem', in this case the biggest group of polluters. Therefore joe public will be affected heavily, bu99er, there's a flaw in that logic......................... Thats most of the voting public............... political suicide if you 'want to make a difference' You just have too look at the uproar from mr and mrs average, when it is suggested that airtravel pays for fuel at the proper taxed rate.................. oh no........... i cant get my £20 flight to benidorm anymore, thats not right, pick on some other poor group!! Also, stop consumerism, how can the continued mass manufacture of plastic electronics goods, brought in from everywhere over the world, be good? We could all live without the latest hitech gadget, plasma tv etc, etc..... Rant Over, i will go back to polishing my eco terrorist transport 4x4 3.9 V8!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I'm very happy to be labeled a pariah of this so called society, I'd be more upset if I actually fitted in with this bloody rabble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 The through-life carbon cost of a Prius is poor compared to a standard vehicle (anyone have any numbers on this, or would it spoil a decent argument?) You can find some numbers here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Indeed, but I'm a bright lad and I've no idea what unfounded has been lightly varnished with dressed up as evidence and put into Excel. I certainly can't tell whether my Ninety uses more fuel in its lifetime than it takes to screw it together initially. This is a general-consumer report, not a technical document per se. It includes breakdowns of each vehicle’s total energy requirements from Dust to Dust but does not include issues of gigajuelles, kW hours or other unfriendly (to consumers) terms. ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderman Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Why the hell cant the Gordon Brown nose do the right thing and put the tax on the fuel and not on the individual. I pay nearly £200 a year on RFL and do less than 1000 miles a year in my 90 , on the other hand I pay just over £100 RFL for my Pug 307 and that does 12k a year , Its not fair . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Why the hell cant the Gordon Brown nose do the right thing and put the tax on the fuel and not on the individual. I pay nearly £200 a year on RFL and do less than 1000 miles a year in my 90 , on the other hand I pay just over £100 RFL for my Pug 307 and that does 12k a year , Its not fair . There's a solution to that... I pay the thick end of £200 a year RFL for the 3.5 V8 Range Rover, but it does do 25k a year.* I make that only 0.8 pence/mile, which starts to sound reasonable value for money... On the other hand, I run it on (relatively) clean LPG instead of petrol because of the cost per mile of fuel - that's a much better place to be loading the taxes if you want to change driver behaviour by the stick method. Trouble is, as observed above it hits Mr. Average the Middle England voter. Taking a relatively inneffective swipe at a minority you can single out for the school yard treatment is a much better vote winner. Don't ever forget that very few politicians are in politics because they're principled... * okay, would do if it was more reliable. Can't really blame that on the government though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiWhite Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Why the hell cant the Gordon Brown nose do the right thing and put the tax on the fuel and not on the individual. I pay nearly £200 a year on RFL and do less than 1000 miles a year in my 90 , on the other hand I pay just over £100 RFL for my Pug 307 and that does 12k a year , Its not fair . Couldn't agree more - I'm buying a secondhand 55mpg runaround for commuting, demonstrating that high fuel prices will cause the consumer to seek ways of reducing their expenditure, and ergo reducing thier carbon footprint. All this makes me more inclined to agree that the idea of road-pricing appears more sensible than the current system. However, knowing B'liar it'd be in addition to the current system and not instead of. We need to be looking at ways of actively reducing carbon emmissions - subsidised micro-generation, grants for insulation, tax relief for working close to home, encouragement for individuals to lead a more eco lifestyle - rather that jumping on a bandwagon and exploiting a genuine concern to reduce environmental harm by using it to make money from the hardworking, law abiding citizen. Anyone else want to start a new country where you can choose how to live your own life and not pay the EU £49million per day? Rant over (for now!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrode Finger Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 i geuss going back to the original question, a gas guzzler would be anything that averages less than mid/ high 20's mpg. Damn, thats my V8 stuffed then!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twizzle Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hang on what about my perkins powered 109 TWIZZLE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiWhite Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 a gas guzzler would be anything that averages less than mid/ high 20's mpg. Like any number of sporty vectras / focuses on the road. I know, let's make them pay £400 a year tax as they're just as bad as a diesel 4x4! 'Government logic' is an oxymoron..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 All this makes me more inclined to agree that the idea of road-pricing appears more sensible than the current system. However, knowing B'liar it'd be in addition to the current system and not instead of. I agree road pricing or just sticking it all on fuel and scraping VED (especially as I have four cars to tax) would be the way forward to make people pay for what they use, but only if it was revenue netural in comparison to the current system, which it won't be. a gas guzzler would be anything that averages less than mid/ high 20's mpg. I can get the missus 306 2.0 xsi down to low 20's no problem But no matter how hard I drive my 106 1.1 I can't get it below 42mpg over a tank full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Save all you like put energy efficient bulbs throughout your home drive a prius then just look at places like Las Vegas/London/Tokyo I bet all those lights burning are energy efficient. India/China consuming energy many times the UKs useage and any third world country where to get rid of rubbish normally means setting light to it. joke all of it the only reason for these taxes is to get more ££ from the population (well the working part of it anyways) raise the Tax all he likes I'll still buy it as no taxes are taken from me from Beer/Fags etc. the 40%income rate/stamp duty/council tax VAT/inheritance tax make up for it so why not load the workers some more. tax them till a change of government then the new one will Tax us all some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesm Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 i geuss going back to the original question, a gas guzzler would be anything that averages less than mid/ high 20's mpg. This green bus must be a gas guzzler too, then - but apparently it's OK because there are 5 lentilists on board... Whoever would have thought it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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