disco to defender body swap

[jericho]

I've been roped into helping with the creation of a 100'' defender,based on a discovery chassis.

It was going to be a bobbed disco - now he wants a stretched 90!

We're just stripping the vehicle now,next will be to remove unwanted out-riggers.

Then will be fitting defender suitable out-riggers,and this is the question -

How to determin where the out-riggers go?

It would be great to have technical drawings of a disco chassis and a defender chassis,with all useful measurements on them.

Are such things available to the general public?

Otherwise we will just have to offer up wings,bulkhead,tub,and god knows what,and do the best we can.

The 200 tdi and lt77 will stay in their origional position,and the defender body will take shape around them.

Any suggestions on how to go about this job would be great.

A link to measured drawings would be greater.

Thanks very much.

[pugwash]

PM both Dave Lang (landrover598) and John Faern (Fruity). Both of them have made almost identical, and very well finished (luvvers don't say a word ) 100" hybrids based on Rangie chassis. no idea how they did them, but if the short one (aka fruity) can do it them anyone can.

(p.s. that lasts bits complete rubbish- he's an extremely talented engineer, and i wish i could haev his babies - and yes i am brown nosing!)

[Les Brock]

Easy....I'll bring my Hybrid up and you measure that, all the front will be correct the only difference is mines got 12 inches cut out of the middle

and I even know what you need to do to get it through the SVA + i'm about as local as you'l get

[Turbocharger]

Does he need an SVA if it's only outriggers and a crossmember? He's not chopping the rails if it's staying 100".

[Les Brock]

Errr......has it been altered from the original design type approval ?, its not like its just being bobbed is it, I mean the only thing left is the main rails

Fruitys was IIRC a 110 and Not sure about dave's both required one

[landrover598]

Yes it will need SVA

The way i located mine was the back face of the outrigger, an inch forward of the centreline of the front bolt holding the centre cross member in

Hope this helps

[ciderman]

Thats ironic !! A mate just bought a 1990 V8 Disco tonight with a mint chassis and engine and a 1985 110 highcap with a rotten chassis , and our plan is to strip off the disco body and shorten the chassis to a suitable length and then add the 110 body and trayback the rear .

Its going to be a "Budget" build hence the day it started from , both vehicles were bought for £400 .

So if any one wants any 3dr Disco body parts they are up for grabs .

[western]

These might help 90 & 110 chassis diemensions.

300Tdi_90_chassis_alignment_diagram.pdf

300Tdi_90_chassis_alignment_key.pdf

300Tdi_110_chassis_alignment_diagram.pdf

300Tdi_110_chassis_alignment_key.pdf

[jericho]

These might help 90 & 110 chassis diemensions.

They will indeed.Thanks.

All suggestions greatfully recieved.

[FridgeFreezer]

These might help 90 & 110 chassis diemensions.

Been there done that with the 109 - welded the rear tub mounts exactly to the measurements only to find the tub was p*ssed so had to re-do them I'd advise offering the body bits up and welding the mounts where they want to be.

[pugwash]

Does he need an SVA if it's only outriggers and a crossmember? He's not chopping the rails if it's staying 100".

if you do any cutting of riggers or crossmembers then you need an SVA

if you just lop of the rear "body" cross member, which is not counted as a structural item, and IIRC up to 10%? of the total chassis length from the either/both of the front or rear then you don't need an SVA- that's why you can bobtail, or rebody a chassis and NOT need an SVA. Basically any welding that needs doing on the chassis to move or alter it in any way will cause an SVA

[Les Brock]

Well acording to the man from VOSA "any" modification to the chassis other than replacing of like for like parts, IE outrigger rear cross member, that alter it from the original type approval will require a SVA...except the addition of a roll cage for some reason !

so Bobs, Trays, Hybrids, Bitsa's....do !

But what do I know ?.....I've just spent 12 months trying not to have to get one

If you read the gumf....it says to retain the original registration you must use the original unmodified chassis ! anything else requires a SVA

[pugwash]

yeah but elsewhere in the gumph (and i'll see if i can find the passage) it says that you can remove a certain % of the chassis length as long as it doesn't involve moving any structurally important items.

This is why kits like the Dakar, Land ranger et al don't need an SVA- they are just "body conversion" are do not alter the chassis for SVA purposes!

[Les Brock]

If you bolt a replacement body on a chassis without mod thats fine....if you alter the crossmember/section that the main body bolts on to (that would then be a modified chassis) then that is structural ain't it ?

The DVLA will take what ever you say for the V5 within reason....VOSA will not

points system

Allocating a vehicle registration mark

The vehicle must score eight or more points to retain the original registration mark. If less than eight points are scored or a second-hand or modified chassis or altered monocoque bodyshell is used, an enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA), single vehicle approval (SVA) or motorcycle single vehicle approval (MSVA) certificate will be required to register the vehicle. A 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated.

Scoring components

The following values will be allocated to the major components used:

chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points

suspension = 2 points

axles = 2 points

transmission = 2 points

steering assembly = 2 points

engine = 1 point

Retaining a age related plate

vehicle will retain its donor registration mark if either the original unmodified chassis or unaltered monocoque bodyshell and two other major components are used. If a new monocoque bodyshell or chassis from a specialist kit manufacturer is used (or an altered chassis or bodyshell from an existing vehicle) together with two major components from a donor vehicle, an age related mark will be assigned. The mark will be based on the age of the donor vehicle. An ESVA, SVA or MSVA test will be required to register the vehicle.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Les is right, modify a chassis such as bobtailling or use another chassis (not new) and your in trouble:

From the DVLA Website :

Registering a radically altered vehicle

The registration of radically altered vehicles covers vehicles which are substantially altered from their original specification, but which are not kit conversions. In these cases the vehicle components used from the original vehicle will be given a numerical value in order to retain the original registration mark.

Allocating a vehicle registration mark

The vehicle must score eight or more points to retain the original registration mark.

If less than eight points are scored or a second-hand or modified chassis or altered monocoque bodyshell is used, an enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA), single vehicle approval (SVA) or motorcycle single vehicle approval (MSVA) certificate will be required to register the vehicle. A 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated.

Scoring components

The following values will be allocated to the major components used:

chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points

suspension = 2 points

axles = 2 points

transmission = 2 points

steering assembly = 2 points

engine = 1 point

Where there is evidence that two vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie 'cut and shut') a 'Q' mark will be allocated. ESVA, SVA or MSVA will be required.

Vehicle identification number

This is a legal requirement for all vehicles used on the public highway to carry a vehicle identity number (VIN). This may be lost when a vehicle is substantially rebuilt, particularly in the case of kit vehicles where the chassis or bodyshell may not have been stamped by the manufacturer. In such circumstances the DVLA local office will allocate a replacement VIN. The DVLA local office will issue an authorisation letter and registration will not take effect until the Agency receives confirmation that the vehicle has been stamped with the correct identity.

Registration of vehicles without identity

The following procedures must be followed when making application for the registration and first licensing of a vehicle without identity:

you should use your nearest DVLA local office

applications from outside a DVLA local office's catchment area will be refused

you will be asked to produce documentation confirming your name and address, the link below gives more information

How to register your vehicle and identity checks

you will be asked to produce official receipts from identifiable suppliers for the components used in a rebuild. The authenticity of receipts may be checked. They will be stamped by the DVLA local office before return

All vehicles without identity (VIN and registration mark) will be inspected by DVLA and referred to the police. Applicants who rebuild vehicles and can prove the origins of the components need not be concerned. However, if the police believe a vehicle to be stolen DVLA will refuse to register and it may be impounded.

Many people chose to either belive they can get "Around it" or just ignore, if you do thats your choice, but VOSA and Construction & Use Regulations are there, your frindly MOT man may be blissfully unaware of all of the above, just cause your Bobtail / trayback has an MOT and has had such for X years doesn't mean its right legal and you are too, it just means you have an MOT !

I had all sorts of problems with my hybrid, I spent hours talking writing and conversing with DVLA VOSA and in the end with the probs I faced and the fact it needed major repairs and then work on it is why I went the modified 90 route, where I took all of the above into account before modifying.

Yes its a can of worms, yes its not 100% clear exactly where and what the rules are, but the old addage of "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse" applies.

There are I am sure many Bobtail RRs and others around who have absolutely no idea of the problems they potentially face, others just make their own mind up to ignore - very dangerous this day and age I would suggest in this "Sue you" culture.....

Nige

[GBMUD]

Thanks Les. That pretty much answers a question I had about changing engine/transmission and bulkhead for ones from a later model.

Chris

[pugwash]

i would point you towards 2 articles:

http://www.totalkitcar.com/tkc_article_122.php

and page 5 of:

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/consultat...summ_190404.pdf

these clearly state that a change which alters the appearance of a vehicle but leave the chassis and all other parts intact is a Body conversion and does NOT need an SVA. They are VERY clear on this and can't be confused.

The rear cross member of a Range rover is NOT at ALL a part of the chassis but part of the body- therefore it can be changed along with the body. i WILL find the part on the net that says how much 5 of a chassis you can remove before the chassis is counted as being altered!

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Usefull articles...and lots of good info.

However, re the chassis and for an SVA to be avioded it has to be "Unmodified" ie not shortened / lengthenedetc, I had some paperwork somewhere on this from DVLA, explaining why an SVA would be applicable on a BOB RR

basically the key was on a Range rover that the body whilst being "unboltable" was then deemed as the body, and the chassis wghich then unbolts from the bodyshell was the "Chassis"

This was for a mate wanting to do a front and rear Bob on a RR.

The view from the corresepondence was that what is left as the chassis after you have unbolted the body is the chassis, shorten this at back, front or wheelbase and your in SVA land.

He / We worked on this forquite some time, but on this area things were quite clear and there was no "Grey" for us to work around.

Nige

[Guest diesel_jim]

Are you selling those two discovery front seats?

how much?

cheers

J