Tiger Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Following Les' guide to timing belt replacement on a 12J and I cannot get the crank bolt to move. Tried the breaker bar under the rails technoque to no avail. (several times) Tried putting it in diff lock, low box & 1st with hand brake on but can't get it wound up enough to make it work. I know the next step is starter out but I'm slightly worried that if its so tight then this may damage the the starter cogs. Anybody got any bright ideas? Best Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diff Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Following Les' guide to timing belt replacement on a 12J and I cannot get the crank bolt to move. Tried the breaker bar under the rails technoque to no avail. (several times)Tried putting it in diff lock, low box & 1st with hand brake on but can't get it wound up enough to make it work. I know the next step is starter out but I'm slightly worried that if its so tight then this may damage the the starter cogs. Anybody got any bright ideas? Best Matt Just to clarify, are you using a breaker bar braced against the chassis and spinning the starter motor with the engine in neutral and the wire to the engine stop solenoid disconnected? If you are doing this with a 1/2'' drive breaker bar and it isn't working, some of the energy may be being lost in 'flexing' the breaker bar. Try slipping a length of pipe over the bar to stiffen it or preferably use a 3/4'' bar if you have access to one. A powerful commercial 'windy gun' may be needed. You could try gently heating the crank bolt to soften any threadlock on the threads before trying again. Other alternatives involve taking the starter out and wedging a piece of angle iron between the casing and the ring gear teeth. Then use a breaker bar with a 4 foot length of scaffold pipe over it, stand on the landrover, and give it a good hard tug. Regards, Diff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 as Diff says i would try the heat option with the breaker bar/starter method borrow a decent windy gun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted March 27, 2007 Author Share Posted March 27, 2007 Just to clarify, are you using a breaker bar braced against the chassis and spinning the starter motor with the engine in neutral and the wire to the engine stop solenoid disconnected? Yep, tried that, can't see where I'd get a wind gun unless anybody is near me with one and fancies giving me a hand. Will go purchase a blow torch and try some heat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 I've never known this method not to work with a good battery and starter motor fitted. The torque is considerable. If there's threadlock or similar stopping the bolt from coming undone, then heat does soften it, but with the bolt in - getting it all hot enough to make a difference will take some time. You have little choice apart from a rattle gun or locking the flywheel via the ring gear teeth. It's unlikely you'll damage the teeth - they are a very hard steel. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonk Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 i'd go with the flick the starter method, it never fails Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted March 28, 2007 Author Share Posted March 28, 2007 i'd go with the flick the starter method, it never fails It has failed, I'll film it for everybody tonight :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigster Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Heat it up... just don't get the alli too hot.. ( assuming its the same style as the 200tdi engine) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 are you sure you have the bar on the o/s chassis rail when you flick the starter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromit Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 When I was doing mine, I placed the breaker bar a few inches from the chassis rail and gave it a good 'crack' against the rail with the starter. Took about 3 goes. Is there any flex in your breaker bar? I've noticed that my one flexes a bit whereas my my mechanics one is about 4 times thicker and doesn't flex at all. Can't wait to see the video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonk Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 shutting the bonnet is a good idea, better to have bump in bonnet than on your head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars L Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 I have used a ring/open end spanner several times. Latest today for undoing the bolt on my n/a diesel. Put it a few inches from the chassis rail, second starter flick was successful. That spanner doesn't flex at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 ok, heres one to try 1st gear drive fwd with the breaker bar wedged against chassis rail (tube the breaker bar if needed) not that my guys ever used to do it this way............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted March 29, 2007 Author Share Posted March 29, 2007 JST > How do I drive forward with a breaker bar on the bolt? Surely I won't be able to start it? Do I stick it in 1st and tow it? Lars L > How do I get a ring spanner onto the bolt when its inside the pulley? Anyway as promosed a video. Sorry about the gratuitous arse shot, now the battery was a bit lethargic 1st time, not 1st time I did this just the 1st time I filmed it, i've been trying this lots now and I’ve drained the battery down a bit so got my 300TDi and wired them up just to make sure. Link here http://www.simpledev.co.uk/pdq/verytightnut.wmv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 any luck with the bolt yet? i,ve had problems with mine over the years at some point around 10 years ago the crank bolt was left loose and it damaged the crank etc i repaired it with belzona a beer can lots of loctite and tightened the bolt up FT with a 3/4" bar. the net result of this exremely effective repair is that whenever i need to change a timing belt the only way i can undo the bolt is to take off the sump and jam the crank with a block of wood! sounds a bit extreme but if your changing the oil anyway it's not much harder than taking the starter off (if you don't mind getting covered in oil ) good liuck paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 wedge breaker bar in place on chassis or floor ensure it cant rotate low first, clutch up, start vehicle. then power of engine is brought in to turn the crank rather than just the starter why it works in gear and not just run the engine dont know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 PS if you try it and something f**ks up i take no blame, just a technique that has worked on pinz and 4T that i have seen of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonk Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 your starter motor doesn't seem that gutzy to me, i did notice it was earthing out on the chassis when you spun the engine, have you removed the earth strap from your engine? that would make a big difference to the power of the starter motor. have you got a rattle gun? would be easy to get it on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 That's exactly how I do it - looks like the same 1/2 breaker bar too with 41mm Impact socket. I saw the sparks that Roger mentions too, so check your connections are good. Judging by how much the bar is bending I would say that there's a fair bit of torque going in there anyway. The only way I can see for the gearbox to do it for you is if you tie the breaker bar so that it stays in place, get someone to tow you and then dump the clutch in 1st. All very dangerous though in my opinion. Perhaps tow the truck to a local garage and use their rattle gun. I'm going to be doing the same job on a N/A later today/tomorrow morning. Getting worried now Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 your starter motor doesn't seem that gutzy to me, i did notice it was earthing out on the chassis when you spun the engine, have you removed the earth strap from your engine? that would make a big difference to the power of the starter motor.have you got a rattle gun? would be easy to get it on there. I noticed the earthing as well and expect to see quite a bit more ooomph in order to shock it loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars L Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Tiger, Since you asked... Maybe I have a different belt pulley than you have, mine is military with two grooves. My bolt is not standard, it has a rather thick hex head and the spanner is a bit angled. What can I say? It works. And the spanner has been used previously on SIII engines without any problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 your starter motor doesn't seem that gutzy to me, i did notice it was earthing out on the chassis when you spun the engine, have you removed the earth strap from your engine? that would make a big difference to the power of the starter motor.have you got a rattle gun? would be easy to get it on there. Nah earth strap is still there, I'm not sure it was earthling, I think it just struck one of the curved lugs on the PAS box and made a spark in a Ray Mears style. The starter wasn't that’s gutsy but that was because this is 1000th time I've tried this so the battery was suffering a bit (I really can't be bothered taking the starter out, its just plain awkward on the 12J). Once I put my other 110 ten on with jumpers it had plenty of juice. Now this may sound daft but taking the sump off maybe my next option, gives me a chance to put a new gasket on and cure a leak. Never taken a sump off before any reason why I shouldn't do it? Cheers for all the input Matt Just as a side note, I got given this 110 2 years ago, so far I've Done New Master cylinder New Slave New rear Wheel bearings and Oil seals New rear shoes New discs & pads Full service New PAS box New PAS pump (& pipes to fit - a saga in itself) New Rocker cover (my fault - I put a new gasket on and over tighten the middle bolt - it shattered) New Glow plugs Welded in New Footwells Welded Front Chassis Leg Welded Front O/S Outrigger New Gear Knobs Vanity New Gear Gaiter Vanity Replaced Front Brake Pipes New Wheels and tyres (tubeless off my 300TDi) New Battery To do Timing Belt Polybushes (don't think I'll bother though, even though I've bought these and all associated new bolts) New Steering Damper New Gearbox Oil New Rear Diff Oil New Front Diff Oil New Fuel & Oil Filter New Engine Oil Fit New Radiator Fit Electric Fan & Thermostatic Controller (I have a cunning plan for this) MOT Give to Father in Law and get rid of the big blue pile scrap off my driveway Sell spare 2.5NAD crated up engine that I bought on a whim. Sell spare new tyres Sell all the other Land Rover carp that just accumulates such as Military light lenses, old 3 bolt box, old pump, set of Recon injectors that I'll never fit 'cos the ones in are fine. Sell other 110, Sell TVR - Done , Sell Boat, buy a Nissan Micra and get to know my Wife and Daughter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonk Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Tiger, stick with it, they're worth it in the end your list of things done will only grow the longer you keep it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonk Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 sump gasket is easy on your engine. if you cant get a rattle gun on it then i'd try the tow method to undo the crank nut next Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 Tiger,stick with it, they're worth it in the end your list of things done will only grow the longer you keep it I'm not keeping it(her really), as soon as it's (she's) MOT'd I'm giving her (Doris the 110) to my Father in Law. She'll be in deepest darkest Wales and I'll have weekend visiting rights though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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