Are Scorpion at it again

[SteveG]

I saw in LRM last night, in the new products section, a piece on Scorpion's new tyre deflators. They are passed off as their own and don't have the Staun writing on them. So are they ripping off another manufacturer??

I looked at their site and they still have the Staun piece for them, but then they had the X-eng pick and logo for a few months after ripping off that design too.

Anyone know?

Steve

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

"Are Scorpion at it again ?"

Wot....................Did they ever stop ?

Nige

[300bhp/ton]

I sense there is a lot of hate for Scorpion Racing on this forum, is there any real bases for it??

Unless they breach any patents or copyright I can't see they've done anything wrong.

I mean how many companys sell cranked trailing arms or dislocation cones??

Or take it further to other industries, have Dell, Packard Bell or any other computer maker really stolen IMB's design or is it simply business.

Is the Land Rover itself just a rip off of the Willis Jeep, itself a copy of a French built machine anyhow?

[madmatt]

I sense there is a lot of hate for Scorpion Racing on this forum, is there any real bases for it??

Unless they breach any patents or copyright I can't see they've done anything wrong.

I mean how many companys sell cranked trailing arms or dislocation cones??

Or take it further to other industries, have Dell, Packard Bell or any other computer maker really stolen IMB's design or is it simply business.

Is the Land Rover itself just a rip off of the Willis Jeep, itself a copy of a French built machine anyhow?

Oh just a bit there is!!! I'm sure some one will be along shortly with enough time to fill you in on their disgracefull antics of early last year or was it year before now. but it affected one forum member big time, so yes you will find lots of us anti Scrapiron.

[Les Brock]

[dollythelw]

erm, can only relate my own experiences, I prefer to make my own mind up about people rather than going on secondhand info so my gripes are........

saggy springs, carp service, rip-off prices, poorly made, failed product with scant regard to any form of warranty, generally made to feel like you are doing them a favour by giving them your hard earned money, add that to ripping off a supplier who I have a good deal of respect for and the result is no product from the London crab will ever be fitted with one of my trucks

Personal choice at the end of the day and no inflection on anyone elses choices - you make your own decisions based on your own experiences

[sgnas]

You might like to ask these people what they think of them too.

[FridgeFreezer]

If Land Rover were as "heavily influenced" by the Jeep as Scorpion seem to be by their competitors, this is what the Land Rover would look like:

Nuff said?

[300bhp/ton]

You might like to ask these people what they think of them too.

I'm not sticking up for or siding with anyone, but if Equipe's products where protected by internal or national patents and copyrights then they would be fully permitted and able to tackle Scorpion Racing, as this doesn't appear to be the case then I can only assume that they left themself vulnerable thru ignorance.

This may not be the case, but I am yet to see anything to the contray.

[BigSi110]

I'll throw my hat into the ring here too.

Never actually bought stuff from them, but from what calls I have made to them, I felt like they didn't care at all.

Their prices were a joke (too high and, on a performance exhaust and intercooler setup, not even guaranteed).

I've since spoken to a few well-respected companies relating to intercoolers and engineered-parts. Their stories all match my views. Even reinforce them.

I'll never use them.

There's loads of other places around with better service, better prices, equal product selection and a better reputation, so I don't think I'm restricting myself in any way.

[300bhp/ton]

If Land Rover were as "heavily influenced" by the Jeep as Scorpion seem to be by their competitors, this is what the Land Rover would look like:

Nuff said?

Really

After World War II, Rover desperately needed to get car production going again. Steel was in terribly short supply and exports got first preference for all raw materials. Maurice Wilks had been using ex-army Jeeps on his farm and realising that there was no real alternative to them decided that Rover would provide one. The first prototype Land-Rovers (1947) were actually built on Jeep chassis. The bodywork was made of an aluminium alloy called Birmabright

Using similar dimensions to the World War II Jeep, the first Land Rovers had an 80" wheelbase. This 80" wheel base, `Land Rover' was was unveiled at the Amsterdam Motor Show, 30 April 1948

[LandyManLuke]

I'm not sticking up for or siding with anyone, but if Equipe's products where protected by internal or national patents and copyrights then they would be fully permitted and able to tackle Scorpion Racing, as this doesn't appear to be the case then I can only assume that they left themself vulnerable thru ignorance.

This may not be the case, but I am yet to see anything to the contray.

You're incorrect, copywrite/patent laws are dodge-able, as simonr will tell you. There was legal conflict between ScrapIron and Equipe 4x4, I can't remember much more detail.

[SteveG]

So you think it's ethical for a company to enter into a commercial agreement with a manufacturer to resell their products, benefit from their marketing spend in event sponsorship, stickers for events etc, adverts to get things started. And whilst this commercial relationship is in place to then pull apart their product, go direct to component suppliers, if applicable, have a copy manufactured and then start to resell that instead.

I don't and many others don't too. Nothing to do with patent infringement etc, just bad ethics, screwing over 4x4 enthusiast based companies that are creative and not wanting to buy from them again.

You can do what you like I though as it's a free world (well mostly )

Also to clarify, I asked if they were doing it again, they may not be, it's just the advert looked suspiciously like they were. Hence I asked if anyone knew if they were.

Cheers

Steve

[CosZuki]

lol 300 has a point on the Jeep thang. alas i have had no personal dealings with scrapiron being they not cater for my camp so much, but i did see a realyl well set up LR at billing showing how great there suspension set up was. it was set up on a cross axle with both opposite corner wheels making contact with bodywork and visible damage from where this has happened on the move.

From other forums i have only heard tails of woe about failing product and poor service not to mention there blatant plagarism of others work, even to the extent of other peoples product pictures to advertise "their own"

[q-rover]

They have a nice style of 'new' alloy wheel as well.

[300bhp/ton]

So you think it's ethical for a company to enter into a commercial agreement with a manufacturer to resell their products, benefit from their marketing spend in event sponsorship, stickers for events etc, adverts to get things started. And whilst this commercial relationship is in place to then pull apart their product, go direct to component suppliers, if applicable, have a copy manufactured and then start to resell that instead.

Not wanting to be a dick about it, but I'm afraid that's simply called business.

It's a hard world out there and this exact process is nothing new or out of the ordinary.

How about all the remould tyres that nick other peoples tread designs which might have taken a lot of R&D and money to develop. The remould is then sold cheaper and often by the same people who used to sell the orginal.

The alternative question is why pay 'x' times more for a product from someone else and have little control over it when you can produce it yourself for a fraction of the cost?

Please note that I'm not condoning the action, but I think it should also be noted that MANY of the companies which supply 4x4 parts the world over are probably guilty of the same thing, just maybe it's not been publised the same.

[dollythelw]

I'm not sticking up for or siding with anyone, but if Equipe's products where protected by internal or national patents and copyrights then they would be fully permitted and able to tackle Scorpion Racing, as this doesn't appear to be the case then I can only assume that they left themself vulnerable thru ignorance.

This may not be the case, but I am yet to see anything to the contray.

if you believe the UK patents system is fair or reasonably enforced then possibly think again - he who can afford has the biggest solicitor wins, prime examples of cash for justice.

Coz - I dont think laughing at thier products in front of them and pointing out serious design flaws endeared yourself to them either

nicely done mate

[FridgeFreezer]

OK, Jeep and S1:

Similar but not the same.

X-Eng X-Brake and the "new" Scrapiron disc handbrake:

It's the sodding same!

[LandyManLuke]

before all this happened, a couple of years ago, I bought a few things from ScrapIron.

They charged me £400 extra, 'by accident', they took 6 weeks to deliver, in the end i had to collect it myself at a show. ringing them up is hopeless, they're useless and treat you like an inconvinience.

In short, after that lot, coupled with the X-eng episode, i have not, and will not, deal with the ever again.

Besides, they make hardly anything themselves, if you want anything they sell, you can just buy it off their manufacturers, for less, and not fill their pockets.

I understand the comment above could be seen as hypocritical, in relation to X-eng's experience, but the consumer doesn't enter into a supply agreement with it's supplier, as such.

[300bhp/ton]

OK, Jeep and S1:

Similar but not the same.

X-Eng X-Brake and the "new" Scrapiron disc handbrake:

It's the sodding same!

Yeah but your not comparing like for like, an entire vehicle has thousands of components. So now the Land Rover is not a carbon copy, but LR did get the idea and inspiration from the Jeep. And stripped a Jeep down and used many Jeep components to design and develop the Land Rover, even thru to the prototype stage actual MAJOR Jeep components where still in use.

A new hand brake consisting of what 4 components is no where near as complex and in reality leaves little scope on how it is actually possible to design it differently.

But where does this argument stop??

I mean do you have a Vacuum cleaner at home? Is it Hoover??? would you ever buy a non-Hoover vacuum cleaner as all others are total rip offs of the orignal.

How about a pen, yes a simple biro or a fountain pen?

Maybe that can of Tesco Coke is taking it too far??

Are those budget replica Daytona steel rims the real deal or not?

What about all the aftermarket pattern car parts?? Oill filters, bearings, etc. are these too not acceptable as they are copies of the orignal?

What about Selotape, or is it sticky tape....

Should that Yamaha Stratocastor really been in the shops when it's a blantant copy of the orignal Fender?

[SteveG]

300bhp/ton you are missing the f***ing point. They were in a business relationship with these people reselling their products and ripped them off behind their backs. That's unethical not business as you put it. Don't try and defend it as anything but.

I don't know why you are labouring on at this, as I said in my post you can do what you like.

Btw there's no comparison with LR and Jeep. Jeep weren't even selling or wishing to sell their Jeep in the UK. Wilkes took inspiration from the Jeep and built a similar product. He wasn't trying to rip off thier business.

Cheers

Steve

[simonr]

but if Equipe's products where protected by internal or national patents and copyrights then they would be fully permitted and able to tackle Scorpion Racing, as this doesn't appear to be the case then I can only assume that they left themself vulnerable thru ignorance.

I think you might be over-estimating the protection a patent offers!

In any case a patent will only stand up if you have the resources to defend it. There are no "no win no fee" solicitors for IPR disputes! I know of one company who developed a device that many of us own who patented it worldwide. It was copied and they spent almost $100k defending it. They lost - because the copy was a different colour and it was ruled that this was a significant innovation (made it less of a trip hazard).

It may be that they did not draft the original patent sufficiently well - or it may be that if you put your mind to it you can wriggle out of most patents with a few small or cosmetic changes.

It costs roughly £4000 for a UK patent. Considering the above you have to be very sure the market is big enough to get your money back - and in the 4x4 world there are few products, no matter how innovative that are.

I have taken out a few European Design Registrations and registered the odd trade mark which protect the appearance of a product rather than its mechanism. I believe this offers better protection in a lot of cases and only costs a few hundred quid.

Scorpion are not alone in this, but the MO of the company is to buy a few of an item off a manufacturer and see how fast it sells. At the same time, investigate whether it can be manufactured more cheaply. If it passes on both counts, they will continue to sell the original for a cross-over period gradually moving over to their copy. That way, the original manufacturer is unaware and as Steve said Scorpion benefit directly from their marketing.

Also the final order to the manufacturer will be fairly big. They will withold payment for as long as they can on this. The supplier does not want to rock the boat too much in case they loose the money even if they do realise what is happening.

Most of what they sell is copied off other companies or individuals. The things that are not (ARB's & Ashcroft drives for example) are just too specialist and difficult to manufacture to bother with for the sales volume. Others do not have the sales volume or profit margin to make it worthwhile.

You can take a hard nosed "business" attitude and say if they have not protected themselves they deserve it - but I personally do not believe it is ethical.

I think "Iron Goat" who make plastic defender dash inserts and the chap who makes the gas-strut bonnet stays should watch out! But I suspect the die is already cast.

Si

P.S. This way, they can also pass on warranty claims to the original manufacturer - who until they find out what is happening, blindly honours them. "I bought this at a show, there were no instructions, it's broken and I want a new one" kind of thing.

[300bhp/ton]

I think you might be over-estimating the protection a patent offers!

In any case a patent will only stand up if you have the resources to defend it. There are no "no win no fee" solicitors for IPR disputes! I know of one company who developed a device that many of us own who patented it worldwide. It was copied and they spent almost $100k defending it. They lost - because the copy was a different colour and it was ruled that this was a significant innovation (made it less of a trip hazard).

It may be that they did not draft the original patent sufficiently well - or it may be that if you put your mind to it you can wriggle out of most patents with a few small or cosmetic changes.

It costs roughly £4000 for a UK patent. Considering the above you have to be very sure the market is big enough to get your money back - and in the 4x4 world there are few products, no matter how innovative that are.

I have taken out a few European Design Registrations and registered the odd trade mark which protect the appearance of a product rather than its mechanism. I believe this offers better protection in a lot of cases and only costs a few hundred quid.

Scorpion are not alone in this, but the MO of the company is to buy a few of an item off a manufacturer and see how fast it sells. At the same time, investigate whether it can be manufactured more cheaply. If it passes on both counts, they will continue to sell the original for a cross-over period gradually moving over to their copy. That way, the original manufacturer is unaware and as Steve said Scorpion benefit directly from their marketing.

Also the final order to the manufacturer will be fairly big. They will withold payment for as long as they can on this. The supplier does not want to rock the boat too much in case they loose the money even if they do realise what is happening.

Most of what they sell is copied off other companies or individuals. The things that are not (ARB's & Ashcroft drives for example) are just too specialist and difficult to manufacture to bother with for the sales volume. Others do not have the sales volume or profit margin to make it worthwhile.

You can take a hard nosed "business" attitude and say if they have not protected themselves they deserve it - but I personally do not believe it is ethical.

I think "Iron Goat" who make plastic defender dash inserts and the chap who makes the gas-strut bonnet stays should watch out! But I suspect the die is already cast.

Si

I don't disagree with any of that.

And I'm not placing blame on anyone, I know money wins and justice and legal system are not often the same thing.

I also don't condone Scorpions actions, but then again I don't buy anything from them either.

And sadly ethics and business don't often go hand in hand (rightly or wrongly, I'm not making judgement just stating).

Is it right that a bank charges obscene amounts for the slightest faulter?

[300bhp/ton]

300bhp/ton [/byou are missing the f***ing point. They were in a business relationship with these people reselling their products and ripped them off behind their backs. That's unethical not business as you put it. Don't try and defend it as anything but.

Ethics or good business sense???

This would fall on your particular point of view. Does Scorpion Racing (or pretty much ANY business the world over) exist t be friendly, support other manufactuers and not worry about making a profit.

OR

Are they in business to make money??

Is it right that Sainsbury's sell their own brand products after having sold branded items and then dropped them? But they do, so do all the supermarkets, does this mean you also won't buy a single item from them?

I don't know why you are labouring on at this, as I said in my post you can do what you like.

Well I was but you didn't seem to like that, hence you above response lol

I think the LR/Jeep debate is far too envolved and not relavent, take it for how you want to interpret it.

[dollythelw]

nice cuppa tea anyone?