jules Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 Yes I understand, appreciate and agree with the above observations. My comments were focussed mainly on the 4x4 issues.Bill. Some of our trucks mine included would get torn apart by the UK police if we had a fatal crash on a UK road. that's a tin of Worms that needs to be left well alone. Mine and (Reads90) Ali's father was killed by a threaded airline connector that was on the trailer of a 40t artic which lost control and crossed the carriageway and hit our dads truck head on at 62mph the Artic was airborne at the time. (sorry it would have been his 65th tomorrow) Don't think we have it easy the police ingnor us until we hurt someone or put a foot wrong when they go to town on us and we could lose everything if were not insured properly. They will find something no matter how well we thing we have built something they will xray welds if they need to. I have sat there and listened to the evidence that is put forward from a police crash investigation it makes you think twice when making stuff for truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted May 28, 2007 Share Posted May 28, 2007 Sorry for your loss Jules and Ali. I seem to have got the wrong impression about vehicle modification rules in Britain. When I read about people over there building road legal missiles powered by 2000 horsepower Rolls Royce Merlin engines. Or being legally able to drive ex MOD tracked vehicles on the road. Or registering motorised lounge sofas, I had the impression that anything goes. I suppose it does, just don't have an accident! Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reads90 Posted May 28, 2007 Share Posted May 28, 2007 Sorry for your loss Jules and Ali.I seem to have got the wrong impression about vehicle modification rules in Britain. When I read about people over there building road legal missiles powered by 2000 horsepower Rolls Royce Merlin engines. Or being legally able to drive ex MOD tracked vehicles on the road. Or registering motorised lounge sofas, I had the impression that anything goes. I suppose it does, just don't have an accident! Bill. First , thank you second . Yeap or get caught Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommo Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 People might be interested in this regardless of your position on Bull Bars http://www.youclaim.co.uk/car/bull-bars-an...r-accidents.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed0 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 According to that article - not illegal at the mo Once the lovely government tells us yet again what we can and can’t have we can discus it again - it’s all guess work at the mo (I think a specification of a "bull bar" will be required too..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 In terms of a legal advise site, I can see that it is written in a very clear and concise manner ………….. Quote ……….. “The main hazard with bull bars is that when a normal passenger hits an adult pedestrian, the person is not run over but under, sliding over the car bonnet and the windscreen. When a pedestrian is hit, the body is punched away from them, then under the car.” Errrrr ………? This site seems to be a net version of the “I’ll sue the arse off them for you sir” ……… nothing to pay, nothing to lose, all the world is honey and roses …….. come and harvest free from the money plants ……..FFS Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 ? I thought bullbars were banned by all insurers ages ago. I know my insurer has. I do remember the A-bar still being legal though. As Brittain being difficult for modded vehicles: well, if youre planning to stay in Europe, brittain is the best place of them all. You try modding a vehicle in holland and get it legal-forget it. chassis mods are not permitted unless you are an approved company to do modifications to road vehicles. Germany is even worse (you cant even change the tyre size without approval of the tuv)and just about every other eu country wont allow you to play with your car. We have the SVA now, but looking at corrodes fingers attempt at getting his hybrid legal, it means jack by the sounds of it. Daan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 My insurance cover the RR which has bull bars no problem, my dad's RR is the same and he's with someone like SAGA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Is it just me, but the argument that bullbars cause people to be forced under vehicles has a flaw in it, in as much as I would have thought that being hit by some thing as flat and tall as say a Defender, Disco/RR is fairly un-likely to throw the victim up unto the bonnet anyway. . I can see that a smallish diameter tube will cause a high load impact point if it comes in to contact with a body, where as the body work is probably more likely to deform but just don't see it increasing the risk of being run over. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 I dont understand the opposition to the bars. Whats the problem with them? Any wimpy little car that gets hit head on by a land rover is going to get smashed, even if you put four inches of shaving foam on the front of it. Gotta go now....I am working on an idea for mandatory radiator airbags for European 4x4's....in colors to complement the sponge rubber tires that leave tracks like cows feet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 "Accusations that drivers are thinking of their own safety first and not of other drivers and pedestrians continue." I suspect it's got more to do with people putting styling before safety, period. Particularly as bullbars increase the risk of injury to the occupants, probably by transmitting more of the impact into the chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 older ones yes but the newer ones have crash cones etc to deal with that problem not the cheaper ones of course I fitted my ARB to my due be being fed up with fixing and respraying my front bumper every five minutes after scratching it on brick rubble etc.. not all of use that have road going 4x4's have big bumpers to push cows but driving on a construction site is damaging to your car if you don't protect it. The RRC is my off roader and has a big bumper for obvious reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinny Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 i know its not lr but i got stopped by police last week in a jcb on the road for not having a tooth guard on front bucket 3 points and sixty pound fine or court case i suppose i should of known better but he got a call on his radio gave me a rollocking and roared off on blue lights now got a tooth guard not that it going to do much good with 8 ton pushing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 "Accusations that drivers are thinking of their own safety first and not of other drivers and pedestrians continue."I suspect it's got more to do with people putting styling before safety, period. Particularly as bullbars increase the risk of injury to the occupants, probably by transmitting more of the impact into the chassis. And what's wrong with thinking about youself first? i do all the time, stuff everyone else! my safety is 1st on the list, then the GF second, the the dog 3rd. other people may come waaaaay down the list, about 27th.... Typical Labour thinking that isn't it... instead of people being responsible for their own actions (like being in a road whilst on foot...) society must make excuses and "help" the poor individuals who can't think for themselves. lets pay them compensation as well whilst we're at it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 geez tractors around here drive with hay spikes at car level/loading forks and all sorts. after a RTA I had the police showed no interest in the which bumper that had just destroyed the Clio I had hit rightly so they were more interested in the occupants and getting the road cleared. I never heard anything after the event and the insurers sorted out the claim. bullbar or not there is 2tons pushing it so that will cause as much damage. I sodding hate all the blame culture and crud we are being suffocated by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 I asked a question in the LRO mag about 10 years ago about this which I have never had a reply to. Who says bullbars result in more serious injuries and where are the statistics to prove it?. Several MP's have quoted numbers of road deaths caused by bullbars with numbers from 10's to 1000's. Most of the data sugests that you are more likely to be killed in an accident with a vehicle fitted with a bullbar than one with out a bullbar. In its self this is meaningless as being hit by a 2 tonne 4x4 is going to cause more damage than being hit by a 1/2 tonne Smart car. Most bullbars are fitted to big high vehicles not standard street cars. What is needed is a study of the statistics of accidents involving vehicles of the same class with and with out bullbars. This is like comparing being hit by a moped and being hit by a 40 tonne truck, then complaing there must be something wrong and dangerous about the front of the truck with out considering the 40 tonnes behind it. On most 4x4's the bullbar doesn't change the shape of the front of the vehicle much all it does is bring it forward a bit. As to now any one is going to define what is and what is not a bullbar...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Who says bullbars result in more serious injuries and where are the statistics to prove it?. Well, I'm going on statistics a relative put together for the company they were working for (not in the UK). They had a large fleet of various off road vehicles (land rovers, mitsubishis and toyotas), many of which were equipped with bullbars. The country they were in didn't have the safest of roads, so they had fairly significant data to work from. They found that there was a significantly higher incidence of injuries to the occupants of the bullbar equipped vehicles when they were involved in accidents, so they removed all the bullbars and the injury rate dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Well, I'm going on statistics a relative put together for the company they were working for (not in the UK). They had a large fleet of various off road vehicles (land rovers, mitsubishis and toyotas), many of which were equipped with bullbars. The country they were in didn't have the safest of roads, so they had fairly significant data to work from.They found that there was a significantly higher incidence of injuries to the occupants of the bullbar equipped vehicles when they were involved in accidents, so they removed all the bullbars and the injury rate dropped. Sorry please Humor me Is that because cars with Bull bars in a hostile road environment can be driven more aggressively therefore leading to accidents and therefore the removal of the bull bar and the sociological thoughts of the driver if he damages said company 4x4 will drive more reservedly and there for have less accidents and less injuries occur. nothing to do with the bumper purely the drivers self preservation kicking in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacemutt Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 As a supplier, we are not longer allowed to supply any bull bar or A bar that doesn't comply with current EU safety regulations, unless we had them in stock before 1st June (I think that was the date). What isn't clear is where winch bumpers fit. Do they comply? We don't know. No-one has told us. Our suppliers don't know. We got the last ARB Disco II winch bumper left in the UK just before the ban which we fitted to a customers car. But can an individual buy from ARB in South Africa and have it sent direct to the UK? The penitly for us would be a £5,000 fine and up to 6 months in prison! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Sorry please Humor me Is that because cars with Bull bars in a hostile road environment can be driven more aggressively therefore leading to accidents and therefore the removal of the bull bar and the sociological thoughts of the driver if he damages said company 4x4 will drive more reservedly and there for have less accidents and less injuries occur. nothing to do with the bumper purely the drivers self preservation kicking in The honest answer is I don't know how the statistics were analysed, but I don't think it reduced the accident rate or changed the type or impact speeds of the accidents, just reduced the injuries occurring in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommo Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 I have read the Legislation (god that was dull). They don't specify bull bars or a bars, they are all labelled Frontal Protection Systems, and as such and I quote "Frontal Protection Systems are a seperate structure or structures such as a bull bar or supllementary bumper, which is intended to protect the external surface of the vehicle, above and or below the original equipment bumper from damage in the event of a collision with an object, structures with a mass of less than 0.5Kg designed only to protect the lights are excluded from this definition" A winch bumper is ok as long as it does not have an FPS fitted to it, i.e. it is only a replacemnt bumper and does not have any other bar fitted to it. I understand that the reasoning behind this is that such a low number of road going veicles have winches and without an FPS attached, will not increase head and abdomen injuries which is where there majority of deaths and serious injuries (for serious read life threatening) and not many poeple die of broken legs. Actually the fines are max of £20,000 and or 12 months in the clink depending on where the prosecution takes place, i.e. magistrates or crown court. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I'm bringing this back to the top as I have a related query. Reading through this and other threads again I understand that I can only bolt an approved but ugly as hell ABS FPS to the front of my 2007 model Defender. Ok, I get that bit but where do we now stand when it comes to bolting lumps of plate* below and to the rear of the bumper and in front of the axle on vehicles registered after the commencement date of the new FPS regs? * Steering guards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gruntus Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I have a bull bar that was fitted to my 90 probably 10 or so years ago. Once my landy is bolted back together again and put back on the road do I have to remove the bullbar or can it stay on as if was fitted before the law was introduced? ie Is this new law looking to remove all bars completely or just new fits from a particular date? please excuse my ignorance if this has already been asked, (it is a long thread ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I'm bringing this back to the top as I have a related query. Reading through this and other threads again I understand that I can only bolt an approved but ugly as hell ABS FPS to the front of my 2007 model Defender. Ok, I get that bit but where do we now stand when it comes to bolting lumps of plate* below and to the rear of the bumper and in front of the axle on vehicles registered after the commencement date of the new FPS regs? * Steering guards. TBH, i can't see the police stopping every vehicle that had a bar or whatever on it and checking when it was fitted. I thought the law was that companies couldn't sell them, but i didn't see any mention of if you had a bar sat in your garage waiting to be fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Miserableolgit,actually the ABS plastic bars for Diso are not EU approved and probably would neve get approval. You need the polyeurathane ones supplied by Landrover. Disco 1 and 2 bars from them are not approved either so you may not even get one from them. We are developing a bar for Disco 2 which may be able to go onto Disco 1 as well. Before we do the testing to get the approval though we need know that there will be enough Diso owners who would want one. any comments on this one for Freelander? http://www.endura-fps.com/webstore/product...?product_id=986 Okaaay but I did say Defender, not Discovery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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