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td5 or 2.8TGV and LT77?


Steve 90
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Thinking of an engine change from my 200 TDi to a td5 or a TGV. First question is will either the TGV or td5 bolt onto an Lt77? Secondly is there any form of stand alone engine management systems available for the td5 so I can run with the minimum of electronics and get rid of the need for the chipped keys/immobilizer etc etc?

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I'd stick with the 200Tdi or swap in the 2.8TGV, the Td5 will not run without it's ECU, the unit injectors need the ecu to send them a electrical signal to operate at the correct time. I've never seen a standalone ecu for the Td5 engine.

LT77 will bolt up to the 200Tdi & TGV [as this engine is a updated 300Tdi] a LT77 could be made to fit a TD5 but the R380 is a much better gearbox [original fit on Td5 vehicles].

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I'd stick with the 200Tdi or swap in the 2.8TGv, the Td5 will not run without it's ECU, the unit injectors need the ecu to send them a electrical signal to operate at the correct time. I've never seen a standalone ecu for the Td5 engine.

LT77 will bolt up to the 200Tdi & TGV [as this engine is a updated 300Tdi] a LT77 could be made to fit a TD5 but the R380 is a much better gearbox [original fit on Td5 vehicles].

Thanks. I'm well aware that it needs an ecu, I'm just after a system that will run the injection without the anti theft etc. A bit like the systems they use when building race cars and that sort of stuff. I appreciate that the R380 is a better gear box but im not keen on moving the engine forward, I don't want to upset the weight bias as its a tray back and is a little front heavy as it stands plus the radiator and inter cooler have been moved back to allow the front winch and bumper to be tucked in giving a better approach angle so this too would have to be moved forward which I don't want to do.

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No need to move the 200Tdi forward to fit a R380, I've got this setup in my 110CSW the engine sits on the original 2.5TD mounts & the R380 connects using the original LT77 bell housing [the very short 11cm overall length one] & sits on the original LT77 chassis mounts. A 2.8TGV would most likely fit but present exhaust & turbo connection problems [similar to fitting a Discovery 200Tdi into a 90/110] & the Td5 would mean moving chassis mounts as it's a longer engine overall.

I'd fit a rebuilt 200Tdi [Turner Engineering] suitably tweaked & either leave the existing gearbox or fit the R380.

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No need to move the 200Tdi forward to fit a R380, I've got this setup in my 110CSW the engine sits on the original 2.5TD mounts & the R380 connects using the original LT77 bell housing [the very short 11cm overall length one] & sits on the original LT77 chassis mounts. A 2.8TGV would most likely fit but present exhaust & turbo connection problems [similar to fitting a Discovery 200Tdi into a 90/110] & the Td5 would mean moving chassis mounts as it's a longer engine overall.

I'd fit a rebuilt 200Tdi [Turner Engineering] suitably tweaked & either leave the existing gearbox or fit the R380.

Didn't realise the LT77 bell housing would fit the R380. If you change to the short LT77 bell housing what do you do about the Mainshaft being too long? Is there a shorter version available to fit the R380?

Altering the engine mounts on the chassis would be no problem and I have a few inch's to play with which would be enough to accomodate the longer td5.

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For the TD5 just fit 10AS alarm unit and ECU on a TD5 loom. Decativate the alarm and immobiliser and you will just have an engine management system with normal key start. Both are reliable units. The 10AS unit can be replaced with a black box, but I don't see the point really. PM Ian, username PORNY, as he has done this a number of times and can also supply bespoke engine maps too.

There are two different type of throttle pedals that you have to match to ECU too.

A TD5 is going to work out a lot cheaper than a TGV, and will give a lot more performance than the TDi's.

Cheers

Steve

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I'd not be sure how long an LT77 will last with either upgraded engine option, bear in mind the later R380 boxes are stronger units with bigger internal bearings etc than the early R380 never mind the LT77, presumably this upgrade was partly to cope with the extra oooomph of the Td5. Probably depends on driving style and usage but any LT77 box is going to be getting on a bit now?

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The R3880 is an easier and smoother box to drive BUT NOT a better box than the LT77

I was also going to say almost excatly what SteveG said but he beat me to it...

IMLTHO the TD5 is the best OFF ROAD engine LR have yet made (obviously the jury is out on the Transit lump as it is untested). The 2.TGV is not even in the equation thanks to it's lack of parts and rarety. The more I drive the TD5, the more I see of modded and simplified TD5's the more I have to eat my words and except it is a bl**dy good engine

In this situation though I think the options are:

Re-built 200Tdi or 2.8 Isuzu and LT77

TD5 and replacement box (auto being very high on the list)

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Personally i'd go TD%, i've had several and they beat the older engines hands down and electics are not to be shyed away from, every car in production has them, and has done for donkeys years to the point even 300TDi had an ECU towards the end of production.

I'm currently fitting a TD5 into my D-Lander build...

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For the TD5 just fit 10AS alarm unit and ECU on a TD5 loom. Decativate the alarm and immobiliser and you will just have an engine management system with normal key start. Both are reliable units. The 10AS unit can be replaced with a black box, but I don't see the point really. PM Ian, username PORNY, as he has done this a number of times and can also supply bespoke engine maps too.

There are two different type of throttle pedals that you have to match to ECU too.

A TD5 is going to work out a lot cheaper than a TGV, and will give a lot more performance than the TDi's.

Cheers

Steve

The extra units may be good but this is a challenge truck that I want to keep as basic as possible. These extra units may be reliable but how will they cope filled with water on a mountain somewhere. This is one of the reasons im thinking of TGV. The td5 will be a cheaper option but I wont be happy without carrying a fair few spare sensors and actuators so any extra "box's" id rather avoid.

At the moment im thinking of fitting the td5, stuffing the ECU in the roof of the truck cab (as long as I can make it as simple as possible) and carry spare throttle pedal, MAF meter, Fuel pump etc etc. I'm not afraid of vehicle electrics, Infact far from it as I run a garage that spends a large part of its time doing nothing other than engine management and chassis electric faults on systems a lot lot more complicated than a td5 but I also see many many stranded vehicles because of a tiny electrical fault which you really don't want in a deep gully, mile's from anywhere on an event.

Gearbox reliability is another concern but as I said earlier I really don't want to move the engine forward any coz I don't really have a whole lot of room and two I don't want to take any more weight off the rear axle. I'm not sure how much stronger the R380 is in the real world, Haven't seen too much trouble with either L/R bow if looked after.

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Can you fit a TD5 to a Lt77? No - the td5 input shaft is diffrent and the bellhousing bolt pattern is diffrent, but theres no reason why you need a short bellhousing lt77 just to get the weight back

SD530985.jpg

This td5 is further back than a standard defender 4cyl, not bad considering its a longer engine. You might struggle for propshaft length though as you are running a 90, as putting the engine there with a td5 r380 results in the gearbox being here

Andrews110057.jpg

This vehicle runs a 24" rear prop and is approx 10" longer wheelbase than your vehicle

It should also be pointed out that there were several modifications made to the R380 when TD5 was introduced, they feel quite unlike a 300tdi spec R380.

Putting the ecu in the roof is easily do-able, and is the best location IMO, in fact we took the opportunity to move all of the loom upwards in an attempt to keep it further out of the water

Andrews110058.jpg

If you want to keep a td5 basic then you will struggle to get more basic than the installation detailed above, that vehicle has the bare minimum needed to make it run, and well

Lewis :)

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IMLTHO the TD5 is the best OFF ROAD engine LR have yet made (obviously the jury is out on the Transit lump as it is untested). The 2.TGV is not even in the equation thanks to it's lack of parts and rarety. The more I drive the TD5, the more I see of modded and simplified TD5's the more I have to eat my words and except it is a bl**dy good engine

What do you think of the TDV8 off road?

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Steve, a TGV will play hell with an LT77. Its a great engine but it eats gearboxes. I personally have never got on with TD5's I only drove early ones which is what may have given me a worse opinion than they deserve.

Dave speaks the truth about some of the parts BUT you do buy a new engine which means you shouldn't be needing parts for some time. Service items are the same. I'm not sure about the timing items (cam belt, tensioner, pushrods, rocker, seals etc) but I'm going to find out soon. FIP is mounted differnatly to a 300 tdi but appears externally simerlar however they can be rebuilt so shouldn't cause too many problems. The head gasket, the head, the pistons, the con rods, the crank and the bottom end bearings are all differant but you won't be expenting to change those in a hurry!

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Guest diesel_jim
. FIP is mounted differnatly to a 300 tdi but appears externally simerlar however they can be rebuilt so shouldn't cause too many problems.

according to Andy Chappers, the FIP is exactly the same internally too.

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If you want to keep a td5 basic then you will struggle to get more basic than the installation detailed above, that vehicle has the bare minimum needed to make it run, and well

But is it road legal? I'd love to make mine simpler, AS10, ECU and loom aren't taking to each other meaning it won't start - looks like a new loom is required, not cheap :(

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But is it road legal?

Yes, it is taxed and MOT'ed, there is nothing in the MOT regs about ecu positioning or whether the turbo heatsheild is fitted :rolleyes:

TD5's will easily pass emissions without the egr system fitted, especially older vehicle to which it has been retrofitted as they are tested on an age related basis

I'd love to make mine simpler, AS10, ECU and loom aren't taking to each other meaning it won't start - looks like a new loom is required, not cheap :(

Similar problems were experienced with the engine installation above, it turned out to be a bad earth, well a lot of bad earths tbh, Cheers to Ian (Porny) for finding the problem

Lewis :)

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The extra units may be good but this is a challenge truck that I want to keep as basic as possible. These extra units may be reliable but how will they cope filled with water on a mountain somewhere. This is one of the reasons im thinking of TGV. The td5 will be a cheaper option but I wont be happy without carrying a fair few spare sensors and actuators so any extra "box's" id rather avoid.

At the moment im thinking of fitting the td5, stuffing the ECU in the roof of the truck cab (as long as I can make it as simple as possible) and carry spare throttle pedal, MAF meter, Fuel pump etc etc. I'm not afraid of vehicle electrics, Infact far from it as I run a garage that spends a large part of its time doing nothing other than engine management and chassis electric faults on systems a lot lot more complicated than a td5 but I also see many many stranded vehicles because of a tiny electrical fault which you really don't want in a deep gully, mile's from anywhere on an event.

Gearbox reliability is another concern but as I said earlier I really don't want to move the engine forward any coz I don't really have a whole lot of room and two I don't want to take any more weight off the rear axle. I'm not sure how much stronger the R380 is in the real world, Haven't seen too much trouble with either L/R bow if looked after.

We have run Td5s for the last 4 years and while we have had MANY problems with drivetrain (mostly bearings, gearboxes, shafts, clutches, tyres, etc) we have never had ANY engine problems at all. In fact far fewer than on our TDi 110s and Discoverys. The oldest ones (TD5s) we have are 2002. I would say most of the trouble is caused by so many different inexperienced drivers using our vehicles. If you are the only one driving then you can be more sympathetic (SP??) and listen out for new noises, etc.

My Dad has a 1999 TD5 90 and he did have to replace injectors, fuel pump and filters and that was expensive. Again, apart from that it's bullet proof.

We are a teambuilding company based in Ireland and these vehicles are used all day, everyday (weel about 5 days a week) through real off-road situations (water over the bonnet, etc). We service them every 6000 miles and check over them each day.

This website might help: web-rover

Also, images of our vehicles are on our website: Ireland Xtreme

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Steve, a TGV will play hell with an LT77. Its a great engine but it eats gearboxes. I personally have never got on with TD5's I only drove early ones which is what may have given me a worse opinion than they deserve.

Dave speaks the truth about some of the parts BUT you do buy a new engine which means you shouldn't be needing parts for some time. Service items are the same. I'm not sure about the timing items (cam belt, tensioner, pushrods, rocker, seals etc) but I'm going to find out soon. FIP is mounted differnatly to a 300 tdi but appears externally simerlar however they can be rebuilt so shouldn't cause too many problems. The head gasket, the head, the pistons, the con rods, the crank and the bottom end bearings are all differant but you won't be expenting to change those in a hurry!

But what about warrantee replacement Will?

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I'm well out of that period and I'm sure I've void it :D

Have you heard of issues with not honouring the warrentee?

Will,

What I meant was parts availability for warrantee replacement - what's it like

The other thing is power - to be honest the 2 TGVs I have driven have been no more impressive than a well tuned 200Tdi and have used far more fuel

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Similar problems were experienced with the engine installation above, it turned out to be a bad earth, well a lot of bad earths tbh, Cheers to Ian (Porny) for finding the problem

Cheers, interesting

My truck usually played up due to water - more heavy rain than wading - I'll be looking closely at the old loom for signs of damage

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