HoSS Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 I've run mine in a variety of conditions for about 6000 miles now and it hasn't missed a beat - why add complexity? So you are lucky. It's not adding complexity - its maintaining the circuit that the manufacturer designed! If you leave them off - it's cutting corners. Personally i dont like doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 True Ford designed it that way, but then most Fords have radios that would get interference. Even points systems and alternators have suppressors bolted to them, it doesn't mean they're essential to the operation of the circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoSS Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 True Ford designed it that way, but then most Fords have radios that would get interference. Even points systems and alternators have suppressors bolted to them, it doesn't mean they're essential to the operation of the circuit. I don't quite understand why you are being so pedantic about this. For me it's a 'no brainer' The suppresion is there to reduce or eliminate noise which may effect other circuits detrimentaly. Which circuits it effects and to what degree depend on cable routing and circuit design. But the sure way to ensure that it doesnt is to fit the suppression. It's your choice to run without it. It doesnt change the fact that the best advice is to suppress the coils. As i said, go count the threads on the MS forums where newbies are trying to trace faults related to vehicle generated noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landybehr Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 Hi HoSS, so is there any argument against using the capacitors that Rover used with its distributor/coil ? I do not know their capacity. (They are cheap and much less bulky. I already have ordered two of them, but could omit them if it would be advisable to take the Ford-Caps). Thanks! Hendrik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoSS Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 Hi HoSS,so is there any argument against using the capacitors that Rover used with its distributor/coil ? I do not know their capacity. (They are cheap and much less bulky. I already have ordered two of them, but could omit them if it would be advisable to take the Ford-Caps). I dont know the value of those offhand. They will certianly be ok for the rated voltage, and i expect the capcitance is in the right ball park. The std EDIS ones are 25uF IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomG Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 I stuck one of these (20uF) on mine (due to lacking the Ford capacitor at the time) http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criter...8Y&DOY=28m8 It's a bit bigger than i was expecting and way overrated on voltage but i don't get any resets. I tried running without it and didn't get any sensor noise or resets. I don't understand the electronics theory behind it but heard that an iffy sparkplug / HT connection can cause more interference which (i think) the capacitor would absorb so i guess it's a failsafe of sorts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 28, 2007 Author Share Posted August 28, 2007 I stuck one of these (20uF) on mine (due to lacking the Ford capacitor at the time) http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criter...8Y&DOY=28m8It's a bit bigger than i was expecting and way overrated on voltage but i don't get any resets. I tried running without it and didn't get any sensor noise or resets. I don't understand the electronics theory behind it but heard that an iffy sparkplug / HT connection can cause more interference which (i think) the capacitor would absorb so i guess it's a failsafe of sorts. HOSS IF I was to fit these - and I say if as I know via hours of datalogs I have had no resets - but I am still thinking about fitting them - HOW are they connected, as I have wire going into waterproof plugs etc, do these need to in effect have the loom cut intio and connected ? nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoSS Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 HOSSIF I was to fit these - and I say if as I know via hours of datalogs I have had no resets - but I am still thinking about fitting them - HOW are they connected, as I have wire going into waterproof plugs etc, do these need to in effect have the loom cut intio and connected ? nige If you have made up new connectors, and these don't have the extra wire for the suppressor, then i would say leave it. It really does depend a bit on how its wired (i.e where the 12v supply comes from, which cables are routed together etc) you may be fine. But if you see any strange behavior i.e resets, or erratic sensor readings, or noisy datalog traces, then consider fitting them. They are connected one terminal to the 12V coil feed (centre contact) the other to ground, both as close to the coil as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 28, 2007 Author Share Posted August 28, 2007 The coils are both mounted on the drivers front of the engine, and the 6 wires from the coils (2x power 4x triggers) run down the driver rocker cover. I bought need Ford Plug pins seals etc. If you look back a bit on this thread you'll see the wiring route. Obvioulsy I am loathe to cut into a harness thats waterproof built ! This wat the CTS MAT sensors are well awat from the wiring loom from the coils ? This was of course completely deliberate on my part taking this very issue into consideration more to luck than any knowledge or judgement Nige PS Fridge doesn't do pedantic, but he is good at splitting hairs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 I just don't see the point of radio suppression on a vehicle that's not fitted with a radio One direct-coil-drive setups you can easily get resets due to the coild being grounded to the MS direct and it can cause problems, on EDIS setups it's pretty rare as the EDIS itself is a buffer between nasty coil things and the MS ECU. If you don't have problems with resets, I can't see any reason to fit caps. I have had plug leads off etc. with the engine running and the MS didn't care. It did show me how flippin' big an EDIS spark is though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imspanners Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 So you are lucky.It's not adding complexity - its maintaining the circuit that the manufacturer designed! If you leave them off - it's cutting corners. Personally i dont like doing that. The "noise" you speak of (later) is the back EMF which can sometimes occur with coils. However, if you get a misfire, the capacitor will not be able to remove all of the EMF from the wiring, taking the ECU with it! (Later style, Ford high-tower coils have a habit of doing that) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 29, 2007 Author Share Posted August 29, 2007 Just in case anyone is wondering .... I 'aint finished yet I have yet to do the WB Tunning, which I will when I get the bits back for the engine being Powder coated (AFM Tubey thing before it goes rusty ), ................ ......and I am also awaiting a couple of packages from the land of "Hell Yeah" to arrive. B) ..........Then the final furlong will be entered........... ...............That and a good hard test of it so far on the 9th at Hogmoor Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 The capacitors are good electrical practise but IMHO not entirely necessary in our application. They probably will be more useful when driving the coils direct from the ECU……………….. Nige…………… on the logs your signals look clean , very clean……………… so in your case fitting of the capacitors would only serve the purpose of satisfying the relevant automotive directive …… However, if you get a misfire, the capacitor will not be able to remove all of the EMF from the wiring, taking the ECU with it! (Later style, Ford high-tower coils have a habit of doing that) Yes, this is not unusual with the later direct driven ignition systems ……….. I assume you are referring to the later Ford Dung Beetle (Ka) ……….. coil packs breaking down and flashing to earth on those is often by damage to the coil drivers in the ecu ………….. the fiat Punto is another fine candidate…………. However, after much investigation and asking around, I have yet to find an instance of Ford Gen1 type coil pack taking out the EDIS module …………. In fact, finding anybody who can categorically lay their hand on heart and say that they have had a faulty Gen 1 coil pack is even remote…………………… Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoSS Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 The "noise" you speak of (later) is the back EMF which can sometimes occur with coils. However, if you get a misfire, the capacitor will not be able to remove all of the EMF from the wiring, taking the ECU with it! (Later style, Ford high-tower coils have a habit of doing that) I'm sorry but thats just not correct. You're making a sweeping statement that an unspecified capictor will fail to attenuate an unspecified voltage spike. also how do you reason that a misfire will cause increased noise? If the failure mode that BBC mentions is what you meant, then thats entirely differnet. Its not back-emf at all, its a flash over from the HT side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imspanners Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 I'm sorry but thats total rubbish. You're making a sweeping statement that an unspecified capictor will fail to attenuate an unspecified voltage spike. also how do you reason that a misfire will cause increased noise?If the failure mode that BBC mentions is what you meant, then thats entirely differnet. Its not back-emf at all, its a flash over from the HT side. Eh? didn't mention unspecified anything What I was referring to is the coil can produce an EMF into the wiring loom, failing to rectify it, will (if we're of the same idea) create the noise you refer to. The shorted coil was an example of that. Later Fords have no capacitor and wipe out ecu's regularly. Mondeo 98> is the most common. Just some examples of noise: Rover 214 89-96 can produce emf on cranking clouding the crank signal. Renault Laguna diesel starter motors when soaked with oil create a lovely emf which runs through the crank wiring (located immediately above it) producing an rpm signal of 5000rpm = non start The most common however, are incorrectly resisted plugs in French cars and Ford Focus 1.4-1.6 EMF causes various running faults and ECU/UCI/GEM faults Disconnect battery, replace plugs = problem solved. (Sorry for disturbing the thread, I'll leave it alone now) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoSS Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 I just don't see the point of radio suppression on a vehicle that's not fitted with a radio Because the radio is far from being the only piece of electonics that can be interfered with One direct-coil-drive setups you can easily get resets due to the coild being grounded to the MS direct and it can cause problems, on EDIS setups it's pretty rare as the EDIS itself is a buffer between nasty coil things and the MS ECU. If you don't have problems with resets, I can't see any reason to fit caps. You are only considering one route for noise, where there are several. Ok, EDIS will tend to attenuate noise being returned by the coil drives. But the suppressors are not for that. They are to attenuate spikes on the 12V feed. Now depending on how thats wired in common with the MS will determine how much noise is coupled. Also the 12V feed being run together with signal cables (sensors) will allow radiated cross coupling. also its worth note - the V3 version of the MS has much improved filtering & potection than previous. I have had plug leads off etc. with the engine running and the MS didn't care. It did show me how flippin' big an EDIS spark is though Having the plug leads off will not effect the inductance of the primary side significantly. Anyway this is all academic for Nige, If he has negliable noise on the sensors & no other problems. It doesnt change what i said to start with, best practice is to fit these if you are doing it. Its not like it costs extra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 [homer simpson mode] I had serious reset issues fitted ford 20 Uf doo daas - no improvement Routed all earth wires proper - no improvement Harrassed FridgeFreezer to within a millisecond of my life - no improvement Fitted el-cheapo Halfords plug leads (instead of luminition)- no resets!!! [/homer simpson mode] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoSS Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 [homer simpson mode]I had serious reset issues fitted ford 20 Uf doo daas - no improvement Routed all earth wires proper - no improvement Harrassed FridgeFreezer to within a millisecond of my life - no improvement Fitted el-cheapo Halfords plug leads (instead of luminition)- no resets!!! [/homer simpson mode] Thats noise from another source, HT side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Hey, lets not get confused here and without delving into reams of technical foo foo, its hard to explain…………………back EMF is mechanism of how the spark is generated from the coil…………… The capacitor is there to stop RF radiation and induced voltage from the coil primary supply line at the time when the flux breakdown occurs (back EMF) …………..induced voltage spikes on the coil supply line (i.e. the switched primary) is a secondary function of the ‘back emf’ from the coil and can cause problems with ecu’s ………….also the ‘spark’ generates wide band RF that is ‘radiated’ by the associated coil & plug wires ………… it is important to stop this radiation from being carried on the low voltage supply ………. So indeed both Hoss and Spanners are right when the theory is applied to the right area of the system If you wanted to stop a back emf on any coil, then you would just wire a F_Off big diode across the coil primary (this is often the case with relay coils in sensitive applications. I think you will find that later coil packs from many of the manufacturers have the capacitor built into the pack as part of the moulding…………. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 1st Package arrived as found and pointed to by Mr Fridge earlier in the Int Forum Essential MS Blingness An 'LCDash' from USA, This is a digital MS display system, with a touch LCD Screen, very configurable, with loads of options, I have settled for : Rev Counter (LHS) configured 0-6000, With both needle and numeric readouts Air Manifold Temp (MAT), Bar Coolant Temp (CTS) Bar Spark Advance Numeric and Manifold Pressure (MAP) Numeric You can have ANY of the megatune Guages shown, but 5 is the max, this in effect saves having to lug a PC laptop about and gives continous readouts, frankly it will just be good to have a F Rev Counter again ! Apparently you can eaven datalog and tune with it by plugging in a USB Pen drive into the 2nd (top) USB Port - need to work that one out yet Didn't take too long or too much effort to jury rig up and get working, making a waterproof box will definately take a little longer, my plan is to make a waterproof box, with a removable clear front so if need be I can then access the touch screen. Loverley piece of kit, superb quick service, from www.DIYautotune.co.uk I'll post up the websites which have more info on this item when I get a Mo Other than a couple of wires for 12v and ground, and adding a 9way to usb adapter, and downloading a .hex file (version 1.6) its was a 15 mins jobbie, still working out all the options Yeeeeehay, ..........may the abuse from TomG HOSS but esp Rog, Fridge and BBC begin LCDash_LR4x4.wmv The screen is crystal clear in real life, phone vid camera ! Oh, and the $ to £ exchange rate is good at the mo, ...........had to pay VAT this end Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Didn't take too long or too much effort to jury rig up and get working, making a waterproof box will definately take a little longer, my plan is to make a waterproof box, with a removable clear front so if need be I can then access the touch screen. Yeeeeehay, ..........may the abuse from TomG HOSS but esp Rog, Fridge and BBC begin LCDash_LR4x4.wmv Nige Erm, mate, erm, how do I put this, fancy making two boxes? Order placed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 I have a Plan A and B for boxes, I'll post up how it goes, and I may be able to help May be a plan C before I get what I want Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 Some of the links re buying seting up and info on the LCDash unit : Buying it : http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/lcdash-...uirt-p-167.html 9 Pin Serial Plug to USB Plug (required) $20 : http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/serial-...atune-p-67.html Info on LCDash : http://lcdash.wikispaces.com Loading the .hex software V1.6 : http://lcdash.wikispaces.com/Firmware+Install and even a forum too http://www.lcdash.com/index.php The service from DIYAutotune is just stunning Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Hey you da man …………. Blingin’ it up large ………………well cool man…………………..sorted…….. You can link that to your pumping tunes and watch the vids from 50p , daddy doo – da and all d’em other jungle bunnies ……… Ahhh…………. I see you also ordered the blue matching LED ring for the Zoorst pipe as well ……………but chromed plastic spinners don’t fit Mach 5’s ……….. or do they ? Seriously Nige, a nice piece of kit …………… I am hesitant at the moment, because I know that if I have that on the dash I will always be fiddlin’ …………… striving for that extra bit of perfection from the tune ……………..but no doubt my dash will be home foe LCDash in the non too distant future………… B) Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I am hesitant at the moment, because I know that if I have that on the dash I will always be fiddlin’ …………… striving for that extra bit of perfection from the tune Ian - that's one thing it doesn't currently do is tune it - it is just a display device, however groovy it may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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