** MegaSquirting a V8 - "Basics of How to" ... The A-Z Saga

[tarmacshredder]

Hi Nige,

S19 file was one that I created in easytherm over a year ago and went straight into the ecu without any error messages when I down loaded it again at the weekend.

The MSQ file is based on one that you sent me and again goes straight into ecu without any error messages.

The warmup wizzard page I will have to put on here later as it is on the laptop and I am on the pc at min.

Glenn

[tarmacshredder]

Hi Niel,

No unfortunately the ecu hasn't run any other engine, is was bench tested for 24hrs before being dispatched to me but I am also sceptical if there isnt something wrong internally.

Next step i think is going to be to try it on another engine, the only trouble is it hasn't got edis as I am only running fuel only at the moment.

Has anyone got a good fuel only msq for a 4.6 that they could email me?

Glenn

[FridgeFreezer]

Has anyone got a good fuel only msq for a 4.6 that they could email me?

Glenn

The fuel-only MSQ's that have been posted in this thread should start & run a 4.6 fine. Rover 8's are very tolerant.

Do you have a datalog of starting & running / trying to start? On fuel only there's only so much that can be wrong - too much fuel or not enough fuel. Where did the ECU come from?

[tarmacshredder]

Thanks John,

the ecu came from diyefi.co.uk, it is a v3.57 so I am guessing the board was assembled by diyautotune.com in the states. Stuart Johnson at diyefi.co.uk then did the tweaks with tacho output, fan switching, dual table switching, f idle as well as the 4 direct drives mounted in the lid. It came with the latest codebase on it and a 4.6 direct drive base map. I then changed it to the 029v code base, easythermed my sensors and used a base map from nige with the edis switched off and the direct coil drive settings switched on.

It started and ran rough, everyone blamed the coil drivers for the problems I was occuring so to elimiate this I put the distributor back on and switched off the coil drivers and set the settings for stand alone distributor using the vr sensor for engine fuel only. The vehicle runs on the distributor as it was running on it before and it ran last Sunday with the Lucas and for a 20 seconds or so on the megasquirt so it is something to do with the megasquirt, settings or loom. I have sent Nige a copy of my msq for him to have a look at and see if there is anything blindingly obvious that I am doing wrong. next I am going to take the wiring harness off and strip it all back and check every single connection and wire (again). Next I think for ease I am going to have to convert the ecu to edis so I can at least get it tested on another vehicle (as nearly everyone else is runing edis) to see if the ecu is stuffed.

I haven't managed to track down the right page yet with a fuel only map but I still have 20 pages to go. What differences are there between an edis fuel map and a distributor fuel map?

The other option is has anyone got a rover v8 runing direct coil drive that I can reflash my ecu with their file and plug my ecu into their vehicle to test? Pritty please with a cherry on top!

Glenn :-(

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

When trying to start it cranks, after aprox 30 seconds fuel pump is switched off by megasquirt and it doesn't switch it back on.

Glenn

Sounds like the ECU is not detecting the engine run tacho signal .............

[tarmacshredder]

Sounds like the ECU is not detecting the engine run tacho signal .............

Is that something that can be adjusted/setting change or likely to be a fault within the ecu?

I have laid out the wiring loom on the living room floor and traced every single wire back from the db37 plug to each connector with the multimeter but also visually from the db37 plug all the way to the connector or where it runs into the covered injector section of the 3.9 loom. I have stripped everything else out that isn't used.

My DB37 plug was made with 2 earth bars soldered accross pins (this is how it was supplied)pins 16,17,18,19 soldered together and pins 9,10,11,12,13,14,15 are also soldered together. At the moment my earths from sensors are attached to the 16,17,18,19 and this is also earthed to an earthing block on the bulkhead as is the earth lead from 9-15 and pin 85 of the main relay. I am not experiencing lots of resets which people normally associate with poor earths.

Glenn

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

If you are using coil drivers, the tacho signal comes from the crank sensor .

Have you checked that you have actually got sparks when the engine wont start , as this would also point to it not sensing the crank pulses………the usual cause of poor sensing is a reverse polarity of the VR signal........

To rule out pump control issues, just wire the pump relay to an ignition live as a temporary measure.

[tarmacshredder]

If you are using coil drivers, the tacho signal comes from the crank sensor .

Have you checked that you have actually got sparks when the engine wont start , as this would also point to it not sensing the crank pulses………the usual cause of poor sensing is a reverse polarity of the VR signal........

To rule out pump control issues, just wire the pump relay to an ignition live as a temporary measure.

Yes the VR sensor is feeding the ECU directly and I have a strong tacho signal and I am showing a good crank speed on the megatune, when the engine was running it was stable.

As I couldn't get it to run properly on the direct coil drivers and everyones advice was I was wasting my time trying to get it to run properly with the direct drivers I disconnected and returned to the distributor trying to run fuel only. It has had periods that would start and run, never very smooth, especially when cold but wont start at all now.

The megasquirt is doing the pump prime sequence when you switch on the ignition, it cranks for some 20 seconds whilst the pump is running but does not start before the megasquirt switches off the pump, I was wondering if this is normal if it hasn't received a plausable crank run speed, whether it does just switch it off. In this 20 second cranking it only occasionally tries to fire, normally it doesn't try at all. I have tried a continuous feed to the fuel pump when the ignition is on but it didn't make any difference.

Has anyone got a 4.6 fuel only msq I can try?

Any help and advice gratefully received.

Glenn

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

If it wont start on the prime and you have fuel pressure & sparks, then it is probably the prime/crank/ASE settings that are incorrect……….. I assume that you have actually had it running on MS and that the trigger wheel settings are correct (i.e. you have sparks at the correct time). Set the timing for about 6 degrees in the low end of the spark map. Worry about the VE table after you have got the engine to run.

The following settings will definitely get a 4.6 to run ………

[tarmacshredder]

Many thanks BBC I will check the settings in the msq and see what I have got, not sure if I will manage that today.

The trigger wheel is set correctly, when I had the coil packs connected I was getting a spark on each of the leads where I had marked the A,B,C,D on the crank pulley. The distributor from memory is set at 6deg before top dead.

I have a spark on the distributor and I have good fuel pressure as I checked both the other weekend.

What I cannot understand is why it was running earlier in the year (summer time) though rough and now it isn't and I am running the same msq as then?

Thanks for your help

Glenn

[FridgeFreezer]

First off it'd be very helpful to see a datalog of an attempt to start.

I can't help but feel the problem could well be with the VR sensor, either the polarity is reversed, the timing is out, or the trigger wheel settings are wrong. These are always a PITA to set up and this is why I always recommend EDIS

[istruggle2gate11]

Swinging towards VR sensor also, trigger wheel - check, check and check, go have a coffee and check again.

Then fit EDIS

[ot]

Fridge, where can I get a megajolt for a six pot?

[/ot]

[tarmacshredder]

I have now checked the settings on the msq file that I have been using and there are a few differences between BBC's info and my msq file.

In "More Crank Stuff" cranking RPM (rpm) I have a value of 100, TPS value for flood clear (raw) I have 150.

In "Crank/Prime Table" Standard priming PW:(MS) I have a value of 3.0

In "After Start Enrichment (ASE) Settings (... I have ASE TOTAL Time of 18.

Nige has very kindly had a look at my msq file and the warm up enrichment boxes look too low for the bottom 4 cells so he has kindly pinged me another msq file for me to use as a base, which I have noted has the same settings as the tables that BBC posted earlier. I dont know why I have so many settings that are either wrong or corrupted as my original msq is one that Nige emailed me when I started.

I am hoping the variation in the crank setting above is making people think that it is a VR sensor problem as I think I have a good clean signal on the megatune.

Weather permitting I hope to put the loom back on and reflash the ecu later, will let you know how I get on. I will try to do a datalog if it doesn't want to play.

Glenn

[FridgeFreezer]

Here's some of my settings (4.6, EDIS) just to compare:

[tarmacshredder]

I have had a session on it this afternoon/evening, and yes it was very cold, megatune was showing -2!

Reconnected loom, and opened up Nige's msq that I got the other day, thought thats odd temp guages showing -40, double checked everything, could burn to ecu but no live data coming back to the megatune. Put my old msq on and the same so, disconnected and closed megatune as it was already open prior to me connecting to the Landy on todays session. Launched megatune again and everything back to normal again. changed settings in my msq to those that BBC had posted for me. Turned key and landy coughed spluttered and stopped. Tried again and with alittle gas it would run, Sounded as though I was missing a cylinder maybe 2 but it was running, popping from exhaust but it was running. eased throttle and it stopped. turn key engine starts then stops unless you give it a bit of throttle, throttle is very unresponsive. After a couple of starts and stops I was able to balance better on the throttle but sounded as though I had even less cylinders running. I can reproduce this on each start so we have made progress it now starts and runs sort of, doesn't sound as nice as it did in the summer and throttle is very unresponsive.

I then tried Nige's msq that he sent me with the edis settings switched off and it sounded and behaved the same.

The forum wont allow me to attached an excel file so I can not attach the data log of what it is doing :-(

Looking at John's settings there are quite a few differences.

Any suggestions on what I should try and do next?

Glenn

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Yes

E-mail me the XLS datalog,

I'll copy to others interested (prob got their e-mails anyway - part of the UK MS Posse )

Nige

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

I have had a session on it this afternoon/evening, and yes it was very cold, megatune was showing -2!

Reconnected loom, and opened up Nige's msq that I got the other day, thought thats odd temp guages showing -40, double checked everything, could burn to ecu but no live data coming back to the megatune. Put my old msq on and the same so, disconnected and closed megatune as it was already open prior to me connecting to the Landy on todays session. Launched megatune again and everything back to normal again. changed settings in my msq to those that BBC had posted for me. Turned key and landy coughed spluttered and stopped. Tried again and with alittle gas it would run, Sounded as though I was missing a cylinder maybe 2 but it was running, popping from exhaust but it was running. eased throttle and it stopped. turn key engine starts then stops unless you give it a bit of throttle, throttle is very unresponsive. After a couple of starts and stops I was able to balance better on the throttle but sounded as though I had even less cylinders running. I can reproduce this on each start so we have made progress it now starts and runs sort of, doesn't sound as nice as it did in the summer and throttle is very unresponsive.

I then tried Nige's msq that he sent me with the edis settings switched off and it sounded and behaved the same.

The forum wont allow me to attached an excel file so I can not attach the data log of what it is doing :-(

Looking at John's settings there are quite a few differences.

Any suggestions on what I should try and do next?

Glenn

OK ……….. I guessed the prime/crank/ASE settings were part of the problem as you said it started in the summer but refused to start when the weather got colder.

Firstly you need to made a few basic adjustments ……………. Have you got an ICV (idle control valve) if yes, then take it out and blank off the air passage as too much air will be entering the engine during the setting up.

Next, with the throttle closed check the butterfly gap …… it should be between 4 to 8 thou and you can adjust this with the throttle stop screw (the 3 thou for a hot wire setup is slightly too small)

Once the engine has started it then goes fully under the control of the VE table after about 12 seconds, so if the table is wrong then the engine will stop.

Put the following table in ………..(it will probably need to go richer)

Restart the engine and see if you can keep it going for a while with careful use of the throttle. Once it has begun to warm up reduce the throttle to an idle condition and use megatune to look at the VE page. The cell that is currently being used (idle cell) will be shown in green and will possibly be jumping around a bit. It should be 40 – 50 Kpa at about 800rpm). Adjust the cell and those around it (particularly above and below but also to the left and right) to produce a fairly stable idle. You want the idle to be at about 800 rpm and set this with the throttle stop screw.

Also at this time you should check that the MAP sensor is working correctly and that the IAT is reading reasonably well (you will get some heat soak on the IAT when stationary). Also blip the throttle a few times to ensure that the Lambda sensor is working OK ……. (look a the red / green in the bottom of the screen)

You need to then put Megatune into logging mode and go for a short 15 – 20 minute drive …………. Use the logged data to reset the VE table using mega log viewer……… do this about 10 times under various rev and load ranges and you will have a reasonable table. To go any further you will need a WB lambda sensor.

Also keep an eye on the bottom left of the screen which displays the resets ……… this can tell you if other issues are present.

[Boothy]

As Nige know's I've just caused myself a right headache whilst refitting the engine after a rebuild.

What I did was to relocate the coil packs to the back of the plenum chamber, right out of the way, plug leads running from the back forward, in an attempt to tidy the front of the engine right up, mission complete well tidy, certain cables and gauge capillery tubes run through the valley space really pleased.

Come to start it nothing, no spark, bell out the coil packs to the EDIS to check the new wiring, perfect, check on the screen to see if it's picking up the crank sensor, perfect, bell out all the EDIS connections, perfect, re-bell out coil packs perfect, remove and check earth to block (doubled up 35mm cables) perfect and clean,

reload MSq still no go and no spark, must be the EDIS module there's nothing else left was my thinking, Nige at this point via telephone dissagrees at this point I will add (smarta**e), so re-bell everything again including all earth's to ecu etc and all feeds to all sensors, feeds and supplies to ECU and EDIS, perfect,

now Iam really running I am now running short of idea's.

At this point with another full evening ahead and a fresh cup of tea, and having a good gander at a spare coilpack (early Ford type) it came to my notice that the connections on the coilpack are flat, very flat, and the the crimps on the connection units are not tight in fact they are quite open, these were probably opened up more than ever by repeatedly pushing meter prod's into the plugs whilst belling out.

I was using standard Fluke leads and prods, just be warned gents, and the morale is check for the unexpected because it will have have you completely baffled to a point of despair.

and DON'T tell HFH cause he will punish you for it.

I've only written this down because some clumbsy sod someday will do exactly the same with a plug on connection somewhere, I know.

[FridgeFreezer]

Boothy - been there, done it myself although only one coil pack connection not all of 'em

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

and DON'T tell HFH cause he will punish you for it

Boothy, thats not fair

When you owned up to it I tried hard to muffle my sniggers down the phone

Anyway I have done some right royally stupid things in my time, and I have no doubt will do others yet

Nige at this point via telephone dissagrees at this point I will add (smarta**e),

Nige

[tarmacshredder]

Thank you everyone for the help and input, I will try to have another look at it today but it might have to be tomorrow as I am going to be short of time and daylight today.

In response to BBC I have a PWM idle valve so will blank that off and check and adjust the throttle butterfly stop. Do I also use this to adjust the idle once it has starting to get warmer? What about the air bypass idle adjustment screw should I wind this in or leave it where it is (3.9 plenum)? I thought I would be adjusting this but having read Nige's post recently on tuning the PWM I am now not sure! I will change the figures in the VE table but there doesn't appear to be very much difference between the table I am running and the one posted, but this could well be enough. I have a MAP figure I think yesterday of about 67kpa and I had a very plausable IAT temp which did rise a couple of degrees but due to the temperature and it being mounted into a rubber hose I didn't suffer from too much heat soak. Thinking about the Idle valve I am suspecting I am getting too much air though the idle valve as there is a noticable hiss of air, this would give me the very lean exhaust sound and the lack of throttle response I think?

I have emailed Nige a copy of the data log which is only short but does show it running.

I had a good look at all the connectors on the loom when I had it off and checked it all, I have had problems with the pins in the plugs on other vehicles,the worst I had was on a 205 1.9 GTI I had just done an engine rebuild on,came to start and it didn't want to know. After many hours of checking everything found one of the pins in the airflow meter plug had pushed out the back of the connector into the rubber cover behind when being plugged on.(aaaahhhh)

At the moment I have the 02 sensor disconnected and the 02 correction set to 0% as I have the wrong 02 sensor in the pipe and haven't had a min to swop this over, I will obviously need this for when I start to tune but at the moment it wont idle no mind move, so I need to sort that first.

Many thanks

Glenn

[teslo]

Hello,

i have little problems with MS2 with EDIS in my RRC 3.9. I wired up system based on wiring diagram from extraefi( hotwire) using EDIS setup. With bid of luck trigger wheel offset is just 1 degree. And now the funny part. Everything is wired correctly( based on wiring diagram). Checked/measured all cables, connections three times). And i have massive misfire into exhaust and engine is running rough( shaking and it looks like it doesn't running on all cylinders). I was trying to setup Req fuel, spark...etc without success. Also tried to use msq file from same setup( MS2+EDIS which is running perfect) without success.

After two weeks of trying to persuade it to running i lost my patience and got rid of coilpacks and wired up again standard distributor. With distributor it doesn't misfire and running is far better but not good. Ingition signal is wired to -ve of ignition coil but RPM signal is VERY wild. it is jumping from 0 to i don't know where...and when you look at fuel table etc. is jumping randomly all over place... Do you have idea where could be problem? Is there some additional circuit needed for connection with standard distributor and coil? thanks

[evo828]

If you MSII/Extra has been built for the EDIS spec- then it is not possible just to run it with -ve connected from distributor.

You can feed RPM signal from EDIS to MSII (assuming the RPM signal was nice from EDIS) - but leave distributor connected as standard. In this way MSII will drive everything except Ignition. In this way you can identify what could be the problem - EDIS, coils or something with MSII.

[tarmacshredder]

Hi Teslo,

i am in a simlar situation in that I couldn't get my landy to run properly with the coil packs but I was trying to run direct coil drive. You can put the distributor back on and run as the vehicle coil and distributor was originally with the fly lead between coil and distributor module and ignition feed to positive side of coil.

As Evo828 said the ecu would have to be moded if it was originally setup for Edis as the megasquirt would be receiving the crank rpm signal from the Edis.

If you have now the Vr sensor wired to the megasquirt and the relevant mods made in the ecu then there are 2 potentiometers to adjust to clean up the signal. My Ecu is setup like this as I have no Edis module attached,here is the link to the megasquirt manual page that tells you how to tune the VR sensor. http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/vradjust.htm

If your rpm signal is so erratic check the VR sensor gap is continuous all the way round on each tooth as the crank is rotated by hand. Check the wires back from the VR sensor and route away from anything that is likely to cause interferrance. Check that you have the plugs wired correctly on to the coil packs and that you have the right plug leads coming off each coil pack as it is easy to get them wrong. You can mark the crank with the timing letters for the coils A,B,C,D and then at cranking speads with a timing gun check that each ignition lead is firing on the correct letter.

Hope yours doesn't take as long as mine is to get to run! lol

Glenn

[teslo]

Yesterday i lost my patience with it. It ended up thinking that my engine must be damaged...So put everything back to original setup to be sure it is OK. It is running perfect. I will try to work on MS later and in little steps. First of all i will try to setup just EDIS...and i will see if it will work...