Puzzled by 4x4's?

[dollythelw]

from nosing about the "tyred" 4 wheeled karakats still seem to be under 700kgs on 52" jobbies,

you'll like this Bill; weight guidelines for non-tyred karakats

[bill van snorkle]

from nosing about the "tyred" 4 wheeled karakats still seem to be under 700kgs on 52" jobbies,

you'll like this Bill; weight guidelines for non-tyred karakats

Thanks Jez. I didn't realize they were production vehicles. I thought they were 2 offs built for a Polar expedition. What materials are they built from,compressed feathers?

Bill.

[Corrode Finger]

They are very funky, but i spose that are specialised for a snowy, watery environment having seen the youtube vids of one in a swamp/lake?

[JSG]

That article was written in 1999 and 'refreshed' for Difflock in 2000. The picture of a young carefree and very hungover me was taken in 1997 after we had been course opening car for the Ebble Valley Trail.

Bless, you look quite normal in that pic Dave

[dollythelw]

there was a technical paper written by a fella called Shalyagin (at least I think that was his name) that went into the whole karakat design school, I dont think anyones produced them commercially? but there seem to be a few about that pop up on the russian versions of youtube (the trikes seem popular - converted two stroke bikes mostly from what I can make out)

I think you're right about those two being built for the polar ring expedition - theres some vid of them on the net

[Corrode Finger]

Jez, i assume that a 2 stroke bike engine is good cos it is also light?

Have you come across any other lightweight vehicles in your experiences in russia etc?

Or even any ideas? As fridge has posted, Petal was heavy but had a low ground pressure, do you think this is a better approach than trying to just be light?

Obviously being light and having low ground pressure is better again, arguably?

[dollythelw]

its good because its lighter than a fourstroke, cheaper and crucially can be started more easily in winter (at least that would be my take on it)

Petals not light in class but whatever comes out next will have to be a bit of a departure from her - the Offroad GP regs set tyre limits for vehicle weights so Ive got a looooooooong way to go yet, Im still about 3 years behind the Russians in terms of tech and driving ability

Its been said before but I dont think theres a magic bullet that will solve all, unless you are completely free of build restrictions; road regs, class regs for racing etc and the ever vital financial regs (the 3 goals - light, strong, cheap - you can have any two but never the 3 together)

[Corrode Finger]

Half the point of this thread was to try and get people to explore things a little.

I am not seeking or expecting the magic bullet, but i hoped that ideas might flow, no matter how 'off the wall' they are. I also appreciate that there are regs that have to be met etc etc.

There are some very clever people about this forum, and by asking certain questions i hoped to learn more in the same way that i learnt loads when i posted about suspension and asked about portals.

I am not afraid to ask, even if i might seem 'optimistic' or hopeful, or even a bit stupid asking 'basic' questions.

I just thought that by going back to simple stuff like Chris Boardman(i think thats the guy) did with bicycles a different tangent might become apparent.

[FridgeFreezer]

Paul - you sound so downhearted! My point was simply that a list of components and weights would not necessarily be any great help in deciding which to use. So far there have been some interesting ideas in this thread, I'd never seen those super-light triallers before and there are ideas to take away from those.

There has been some great advice too - having seen Daan's Series it is a really impressive vehicle, for the attention to detail and the way everything has been thought about so carefully.

As Jez said to me a while back: Decide what you want it to do and then build it. Look where that got me

The man is right though - only you can decide what you actually want, and once you set the criteria you've just got to build it (unless you're Al in which case you'll never decide and just keep re-designing the vapour build)

All the ingredients are out there - small car or even bike engines, lightweight tube, GRP, small 4x4's (Panda, SJ, Subaru Justy anyone?) trawl eBlag & Freeads and see what presents itself as a suitable donor.

Personally I have a hankering to build a quick freelander (not a DLander) for mucking about in, but that's for another day and another overdraft

[Corrode Finger]

Fridge, i am far from downhearted, i am jut trying to tease out more closet ideas from people in an attempt to explore a thread that does not seem to come up a whole lot.

I agree that there are some excellent ideas that have come forward, but i have also realised that if you ask around a subject you get some ideas thrown in the ring that could be useful to others.

I have a plan for a new build that is certainly different, it has elements in it that have come up here and on the suspension thread, however i cant seem to think of a reasonable way to include portals , like Jez said 2 out of three!!

I just currently have an issue regarding space to build said new idea, so 'vapour building' is a good way to explore ideas.

I was perhaps hoping that more lightweight stuff existed to feed ideas, but it does seem to be a little explored arena.

[dirtydiesel]

Fridge, i am far from downhearted, i am jut trying to tease out more closet ideas from people in an attempt to explore a thread that does not seem to come up a whole lot.

I agree that there are some excellent ideas that have come forward, but i have also realised that if you ask around a subject you get some ideas thrown in the ring that could be useful to others.

I have a plan for a new build that is certainly different, it has elements in it that have come up here and on the suspension thread, however i cant seem to think of a reasonable way to include portals , like Jez said 2 out of three!!

I just currently have an issue regarding space to build said new idea, so 'vapour building' is a good way to explore ideas.

I was perhaps hoping that more lightweight stuff existed to feed ideas, but it does seem to be a little explored arena.

There are lots and lots of lightweight motors out there, most of which you will never see or hear anything about unless you get yourself out to trials and comps, a lot of people i know with very special cars have absolutly no interest in talking about them on the internet and even less on having pictures of them put on the 'net either

There are also litrally thousands of different driveline combinations that from within the confines of a landrover forum you just won't get to know about.

And contry to fridges suggestion i think a definative list of component weights would be very helpfull, quite how you could verify and trust such a list i don't know.

[Corrode Finger]

There are also litrally thousands of different driveline combinations that from within the confines of a landrover forum you just won't get to know about.

Not wanting to promote the opposition, where would you suggest a good place to find out more?

[Mark90]

There are lots and lots of lightweight motors out there, most of which you will never see or hear anything about unless you get yourself out to trials and comps, a lot of people i know with very special cars have absolutly no interest in talking about them on the internet and even less on having pictures of them put on the 'net either

Not wanting to promote the opposition, where would you suggest a good place to find out more?

I think Dan has provided at least one answer to that one above. And I have to agree with him, you will see a lot of interesting stuff if you go to a few trials (Mod rather than RTV) and comp safaris.

[dollythelw]

is there really an opposition camp?

I guess it depends on your perspective - brand loyalty is always going to restrict possible solutions,

sod that! I just want stuff that works!

(hericy - burn the witch)

[Corrode Finger]

is there really an opposition camp?

I guess it depends on your perspective - brand loyalty is always going to restrict possible solutions,

sod that! I just want stuff that works!

(hericy - burn the witch)

That statemant was meant 'tongue in cheek'!

[sheeppimp]

While browsing a.n.other forum have just found this - looks like other people are thinking along similar lines

mmmm light

I'm liking this and nice to see something a bit different

[twizzle]

now i know what i can put the perkins in.

insted of using it as a boat anker:D

TWIZZLE

[Corrode Finger]

now i know what i can put the perkins in.

insted of using it as a boat anker:D

TWIZZLE

That kinda defeats the point of light!

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

My opinion is the lighter the better. I don't think you'll reach a stage where you loose traction because you don't weigh enough (sorry Nige ). The great benefit of being light is you roll over the top instead of sinking in and when you are stuck it is much easier and quicker to extricate yourself. (aparently! )

Oi

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopi...1&hl=weight

2280

Nige

[twizzle]

That kinda defeats the point of light!

OK what about this engine it's light(ok a tad small)

HAT COAT DOG lead DOG here boy gone

[sheeppimp]

now you're thinking Twizzle, just plumb in some nitrous or fit a turbo and you're away. more power than you could ever want for the 109...

[pugwash]

should there not be a consideration of taking weight saving too far?

if we take that the sort of vehicle we are discussing here is an "all round" vehicle (as opposed to be solely aimed at trials, baja, challenge etc) is there a weight at which you have gained all the benefit you can. Is a 1200kg vehicle going to be THAT much more effective than a 900kg vehicle, and will that extra 300kg allow you take advantage of more power/speed? if we all want to get as light vehicles as possible then surely we are going to be running around in quads?

perhaps we should look at designing vehicles from first principles- ie work out what power/weight you want, the C of G you want versus the ground clearance you need, the size tyre you want to run (or how much traction you need) etc etc This will give you the rough dimensions of the vehicle which will lead to construction methods and weights allowable for each part.

i am a little surprised that no one in the UK has started using the US pro-buggies which can be bought off the shelf flatpacked- they don't weigh a huge amount and can happily accept strong axles, big tyres and light yank V8s!

[Lewis]

i am a little surprised that no one in the UK has started using the US pro-buggies which can be bought off the shelf flatpacked- they don't weigh a huge amount and can happily accept strong axles, big tyres and light yank V8s!

Most people in the UK are too busy bolting Devon 4x4 whinch bumpers onto their 90's to think about that sort of thing

[sheeppimp]

perhaps we should look at designing vehicles from first principles- ie work out what power/weight you want, the C of G you want versus the ground clearance you need, the size tyre you want to run (or how much traction you need) etc etc This will give you the rough dimensions of the vehicle which will lead to construction methods and weights allowable for each part.

That seems like the logical way forward, rather than starting with a vehicle and the inherent compromises that a commercially available requires to meet the various requirements of legislation, differing users and commercial pressures in consturction etc.

i am a little surprised that no one in the UK has started using the US pro-buggies which can be bought off the shelf flatpacked- they don't weigh a huge amount and can happily accept strong axles, big tyres and light yank V8s!

been looking but still think these would be a compromise, not necessarily that they wouldn't work but that it would still be buying another persons compromise. Other alternatives could be to take a mod trialer as a base vehicle e.g. spider and work from there.

Mind you I reckon Lewis has a point, current thinking still seems to be that ultimate prowess can be acheived by bolting on goodies to an existing vehicle. I still think that starting from first principle will provide a more focused machine

[geoffbeaumont]

If you're really going to town on the lightweight idea, I guess something like an aluminium honeycomb or GRP spaceframe would be the place to start? The former is almost certainly ludicrously expensive to build as a one off, the latter might be doable? Not sure how well it would stand up to the rigours of off-road use, though - I don't think GRP has a lot of give in it? Doubt you could build an adequate roll cage from it, either, and certainly not one that would pass any regs if you were competing.

What about a plywood truck? Has anyone tried that?