Building for the future

[Turbocharger]

I think a few will think twice after Steve Lloyd's 'experience' in Germany!

What happened?

[miketomcat]

just to add my five eggs when i built my tomcat i wanted a road legal every day truck that i could compete in if i wish. so reading through all the dvla paperwork i sumised that if i put my truck through a VIC if it passed (which it did) i have a road legal still registered on original plates truck if it failed the VIC it would need an SVA therefore passing that would give me what i wanted. in this case the decision as to legal or not is made by a man working for the government diretly

as another point even the current 2007 defender would probably struggle to pass the car SVA so the only real option for an offroader is a commercial SVA

if i was to build another truck i would build it with an SVA manual to hand at least you have something to work to then

mike

[dollythelw]

and the likes of off-road God Jez with Petal have pushed the boundaries so far he no longer needs to compete, he KNOWS he would win.

interesting thread, odd quote

We've never met but Ive always regarded your vehicle highly and the skill that went into building it. Me? I just tap away in a barn, Im no hot-poop driver let alone a God - I enjoy building cars though and the racing is a lot of fun. Have I given up competing? no.. Am I interested in UK winch challenges? no.. they're just not my thing. My choice is to race trophy raid at proto class and if that choice upsets people (for some reason?) then thats their issue and not mine . Im not conciously pushing anything forward in the UK, personally Im trying to catch up with the Russians, Estonians, Fins, Latvians etc (having said that if the lessons learned from what I do is of help or applicable to anyone else then thats a bonus )

back O/T I guess the only way to definatively dot the i's and cross the T's would be to SVA the car in full competition trim, at least then you could rest easy knowing what you've built has met all the requirements for both construction and use and the MOT?

As a suggestion, a hybrid hydro steering setup would give you the legal benefits of a mechanical link. When I rang the local SVA centre in Newbury they seemed more than happy with it. Its a subject thats of interest to me as I want to SVA the next car. I wouldnt be happy running an agricultural registration personally as I think its shakey ground

Im not in a position to make any suggestions about class structures here - I know it works well in what I do but how applicable is it to the UK? pass.... I think it would work providing the issue of C&U and MOT compliance is put to bed leaving everyone a clear framework to build to. Its either that or bury heads in sand and let the individual take thier own risks, if a car spills at a competion then providing it has passed scrutineering then I think a prosecutor would have a hard time insisting that they must be thoroughly versed in C&U regulations when MOT inspectors and Police dont know them either- do we have a forum Solicitor that could advise? maybe Neil could shed some light on what qualifications/knowledge/training scrutineers require legally?

As an aside; Ive been pulled in Holland, Germany, Finland, Russia and the UK - I might have just been exceptionally lucky (although its meaningless in terms of proving overall legality) but it seems that once the Feds have seen an MOT, registration, licence and insurance they usually just smile, occassionally take a picture of the car and then go off happy.

[Corrode Finger]

Totally agree with miketomcat, once you have been through SVA or VIC(which my hybrid did) you have been passed by a government appointed inspector, whatever method you use.

Build the truck with a SVA manual so that if you are required to do this you have covered all the problems.

The SVA cert is there to allow the vehicle to get a V5 reg cert. The vehicle only has to pass on the day its presented. SVA is the approval system for individual cars, its to ensure sound vehicles, the same as a mass market car maker has to do type approval. On the basis that if you got pulled in the future, you might not comply, is a bad argument, basically any car with any aftermarket fitted accessory from any mass manufacturer will fall foul, of the law, as they will not meet type approval. Look at all those Saxo's, 206's etc with bad boy bodykits etc, they are non SVA or type approval compliant.

But on the day that they were examined, they passed.

Current defender would struggle to pass SVA or current type approval(if it as being introduced as it is), due to external protrusions, and non compliant pedestrian friendly raduis to bulkheads, bumpers etc.

Hey, its a minefield, but all of us who want to build something, will work our way through and around the regs, thats what has always been done and will continue to be done!

[andylandy]

ccda is the oz way of doing it but they just change the rules to suit who’s in vogue at the time take the 2006 outback the winning car was on tyres to big so they changed the rules!!!!

as for a rule book I am all for it but there the problem lies if the MSA get hold of it my cars will be up for sale and I will build a ladoga car

As for UK comps I have never seen a tyre gauge at an event you take CSW in the rules it states 36" tyre max yet we all know the fedima is 36.5" on a 16x8 rim but the tyre is £90 cheaper than a simex!! (this is not a dig at CWS) now we get to the root of the problem in that different people have different budgets and some have to buy and bolt on some produce there own an some pay for others to build none of these options are wrong there just choice.

I was lucky enough to spend a few days driving the Bathtub an it’s fantastic and I would love to own it (Pete are you there) and there are other wonderful cars out there been used and produced at this very moment.

the way I see it is the our sport is evolving quickly at the moment and I don’t see where it is going to end up but the debate of what we should be building will be open until a organisation is developed and signed up to.

Out of interest how many cars compete in the UK?

[will_warne]

What happened?

He was involved in a mishap on an autobahn and ended up with some free bed and board I think the root of the problem is that his Mog axled thing is still registered as a RR vogue.

Bill, insurance and scrutineering is a minefield. Basically IF, as an event organiser, you scrutineer a vehicle then you become liable if anything should happen due to a vehicle failure as you've passed it as safe/sound. If, however, you make the competitors sign a form saying the vehicle complies to the rules, has MOT, tax and insurance then the buck stops with them. Do this along with an informal check so you can turn away anyone who's taking the tiddle and then cover your a$$ with a load of indemnity insurance just in case and that's going to be the best way for a smaller event to run. AFAIK, the MSA has massive insurance cover for its scrutineers in case they do make a mistake and something they've passed has failed. Personally I wouldn't like to see the challenge scheme run under the MSA - its a form of motorsport that's very drastically different and unless some special concessions were made it'd be a PITA.

[Corrode Finger]

Soo, just out of interest, whats wrong with dragging a competition car around on a trailer?

Kinda makes sense, especially if it is subject to legal interpration, surely the more miles you do the greater the chance of an accident/ pull, failure?

Most other motorsport disciplines accept that you trailer the car to an event, if nothing else it means that if you play hard, you can still get home?

[dollythelw]

because its less heroic

[FridgeFreezer]

Soo, just out of interest, whats wrong with dragging a competition car around on a trailer?

Nothing wrong with towing it to the event, it's when people trailer it because it has no MOT (EG is not road legal) that the problems arise. This is why we bought in the MOT-and-insurance rules in SLRC due to "sheds on trailers", and it seems to have had the desired effect.

[Daan]

Soo, just out of interest, whats wrong with dragging a competition car around on a trailer?

Kinda makes sense, especially if it is subject to legal interpration, surely the more miles you do the greater the chance of an accident/ pull, failure?

Most other motorsport disciplines accept that you trailer the car to an event, if nothing else it means that if you play hard, you can still get home?

I think the issue being that you potentially bring an illegal car, which then is used on the road in transit stages.

I also believe that towing your vehicle to an event is going away from the spirit of things. But probably I am saying this because I havent got the means to tow.

The ozzies have got the right format In my opinion: the cars are based on an existing car, with a given amount of freedom. There are no classes and the competition is fair and interesting I think.

Daan

[Corrode Finger]

yeah, kinda agree, but this is more about competition use, challenge events, i doubt there would be that many chav rangies competing with missing lights holes in the floor and bust windows, and white trainers!

They would not even pass the basic safety requirements as set out for example in the AWDC regs.

Play days operate in a different sphere relative to a challenge event.

Never said NO MOT, but as highlighted by Will and the autobahn mishap, its just not technically correct!

EDIT to add

When i built my Lotus 7, that happily passed an MOT prior to a SVA and that was legal, but not technically correct. It subsequently had 3 attempts at the SVA, due to inerpretation, and passed.

[Mark90]

I think the issue being that you potentially bring an illegal car, which then is used on the road in transit stages.

I also believe that towing your vehicle to an event is going away from the spirit of things. But probably I am saying this because I havent got the means to tow.

Maybe against the spirit of something like an RTV event, but trailering is the norm in the vast majority motorsport. Take something like hill climbs/sprints for instance, you can drive to the event enter a road legal class have a blast and hopefully drive home, but those who want to push boundries (of innovation of driving ability) will normally trailer the comp car whether road legal or not.

Was co-driving at Sweetlamb at the weekend and I don't think any one drove their comp car there, even though many are road legal, at least at the start of the event. Those events that have transit stages on public road (hill rallies for instance) require road legal cars, those that don't (eg comp safaris) don't. Simple really.

I sometimes trailer to events simply cos it's cheaper (V8 comp car, diesel tow car), quieter, more comfortable, and can more easily carry camping gear etc.

[Steve Hiatt]

There are two types of agricultural tax disc, one 'agricultural machine' which covers anything manufactured as such, or re-registered as one. Secondly you can have an agricultural exemption/'limited use' tax dic which allows you to drive six miles a week to and from your own land. I have a Series 111 on this and used to have my Range Rover racer on it. Tax is free and you don't need an MOT, insurance is about £50 a year.

With the Range Rover I could legaly test it on the road by driving to a field a couple of miles away without the expense of MOT, TAX and full insurance, but this would be difficult if you weren't a farmer!

[najw]

maybe Neil could shed some light on what qualifications/knowledge/training scrutineers require legally?

It depends at what level the competition is. If its Clubman level which AWDC Safaris and Challenges are then a 'Competent person' can do the job.

If its at National A level ie British Offroad Championship then the Scrutineer must be National A which is 2 years of MSA training.

However for both AWDC Challenge Trophy and Safari Championship events we CHOOSE to use National A scrutineers for consistency, experience and quality.

I'm not sure which 'Challenge Scheme' Will is referring to but we have run Challenges for 4 years now under MSA approved regulations with no PITA.

Note I say MSA approved, this means that we submit our regs, the MSA satisifies itself that our regs meet or exceed theirs and they approve them.

We then benefit from £60,000,000 MSA public liability insurance if something goes horribly wrong.

[dirtydiesel]

F**k it!

Build whatever you want to build, and live with fact that some small minded F**k ups won't want you to come and p**s on their barbeque .

As for the legalities make it as strong and safe as your experience lets you, then get a decent barrister.

[honitonhobbit]

F**k it!

Build whatever you want to build, and live with fact that some small minded F**k ups won't want you to come and p**s on their barbeque .

As for the legalities make it as strong and safe as your experience lets you, then get a decent barrister.

Verily the second lesson according to DD; taken from the Book of DD, price £12.99 at The Church of DD and Waterstones

[dollythelw]

I waited in the Harry Potter queue by mistake

[honitonhobbit]

I waited in the Harry Potter queue by mistake

You can have my copy

[will_warne]

It depends at what level the competition is. If its Clubman level which AWDC Safaris and Challenges are then a 'Competent person' can do the job.

If its at National A level ie British Offroad Championship then the Scrutineer must be National A which is 2 years of MSA training.

However for both AWDC Challenge Trophy and Safari Championship events we CHOOSE to use National A scrutineers for consistency, experience and quality.

I'm not sure which 'Challenge Scheme' Will is referring to but we have run Challenges for 4 years now under MSA approved regulations with no PITA.

Note I say MSA approved, this means that we submit our regs, the MSA satisifies itself that our regs meet or exceed theirs and they approve them.

We then benefit from £60,000,000 MSA public liability insurance if something goes horribly wrong.

Neil, I'm not tryinf to take away from what you've done but there are a couple of rules I don't like. Firstly the exhasust rule. I can see why you've done it but I think a 90 degree bend is a liability as it'll likely as not get ripped off and is something nice and hot for spectotors to touch. The second is the fuel breather rule - anyone who raises they're fuel breather to the top of the vehicle is going to bring it within 250mm of the cabin. This shouldn't be an issue if the fuel system is correctly plumbed.

[najw]

Neil, I'm not tryinf to take away from what you've done but there are a couple of rules I don't like. Firstly the exhasust rule. I can see why you've done it but I think a 90 degree bend is a liability as it'll likely as not get ripped off and is something nice and hot for spectotors to touch. The second is the fuel breather rule - anyone who raises they're fuel breather to the top of the vehicle is going to bring it within 250mm of the cabin. This shouldn't be an issue if the fuel system is correctly plumbed.

Just dealing with the points as they are raised

I don't like the exhaust situation either, the bends or deflectors are an unsatisfactory compromise for people who don't want to replace their side exit systems with compliant ones. Ideally a 90 bend should be within the bodywork. However if any spectators got close enough to start touching exhausts I'd be slightly concerned to say the least!!

Hadn't thought about the fuel breathers but yes on a Truck cab you have a point.

However the point is that by complying with a standardised set of technical regs at least you know when you turn up that your truck is unlikely to fail. If we tried to accomodate every individuals dislikes of the rules it would be anarchy and as an organiser I would have no cover

[bathtub]

Yer ban us all

No seriously unless you run a proper series with exact rules on everthing ,from tyres to engine make & size etc like they do in Formula Ford Nascar etc .I cant see how you can fairly police it

I seriously think that if someone threw £250k at a truck with race car technology in it but it had straight axles ,35" tyre etc etc there would still be prople calling for that to be banned . You will never win just have different classes & have done with it

Even if you like have a O.A.P class with free meal on wheels & CPR special sections

Love Bathtub

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Paul,

Interesting post !

I think that there is a mixing bowl in this thread, it contains

SVA VIC

MOT

Construction and use regulations

Insurers

Rules and Regs

Cheating

Being legal

Steeping close to the line

Stepping over the line

Your choice as to your position

Clubs views

Dangers

Linking of all of the above

In no particular order :

SVA VIC

If you go this route you stand a pretty damned good high chance of having a Legal truck on the road, yes future mods etc etc etc, but a properly SVAd truck 9if thats really what it needs" makes you well and truly the legal side of the law in the majority of "Issues" that people try to get around / ignore

MOT

many LRs have MOTs. Many too should have a SVA etc, many don't due to 2Don't care", I'll never be caught, head in sand, or genuinely has no idea of the Can of worms trhe LR in Q may cause......often owners choice, - not for me ta....

Danger hear is insurers walking away at a big prang saying C&U regs SVA didn't tell us of the mods, etc etc, grey area yes, but I do not want to be the one testing it

Construction & Use Regs#

Whilst a LR may have a MOT it may fall fowl of C&U Regs, these are very different, an MOT tester cannot fail a LR cos its outside C&U, he can only fail it on MOT Rules, as such many think and MOT is a get out of jail free card, big can of worms

Insurers

Many don't come clean with insurers as to the mods - madness !

Rules and Regs

HBRO if its MOT.d tax'd then its MOTd and Taxd unless someione is stupid and puts a Mini Tax disc etc in the window, I did catch one once and sent packing.

Cheating

Some peple like to cheat, punches, the law, friends etc, cheats. When caught they will argue, but frankly as an event organizer I just HOPE people are honest enough not to cheat, but people always will "Push the envelope" be it with events, officials, insurers, etc etc

Being legal

I would rather know I was legal, the insurers have all the info have MOT thats worth the paper its written on, have UK legal tyres and noty have to worry (I would others maybe don't) as to what could go wrong, my choice

Steeping close to the line

MOT and C&U and SVA all have grey areas, many do work in and around these, may this is OK.

Stepping over the line

Has to be the owners call, how many MOTd Series 3 coild sprung 90 lookalike Tax emempt LRs doyou STILL see for sale ...illegal ...period. But they do sell, and people still buy them, true some don't know but many do.....

Your choice as to your position

As its asays really, its the owners call, I won't even have non E Marked Tyres ta everso, as I just do not wnat the risk....however I don't know anyone who has been "Done", but not me ta

Clubs views

These are fairly similar, MOTs Tax are for insurance, all at MWWCE were MOTd Taxd, as to the other bits above thats more their problems on the road etc.

I guess at the end of the day I would rather have a limit on mods and insurers happy proper MOT legal tyres etc etc etc than put my house savings etc up for grabs with some smart law firm suing me for the shirt off my back due to them hitting my in a RTA and turning it all to being my fault

Tin of Worms Mr W, tin of worms !

nige

[LR90]

Maybe we should just stop worrying about competing in road legal cars then much of the above is no longer an issue. (Note I say competing and not club play days as this is a different matter)

It will then be solely down to the event and class rules as to what can compete which could set what rules it wants on hydro steer, four wheel steer, need for mudguards, demisters,... and we could start to get some vehicle build for events with no compromise to 'keep it legal'. Might be much more liberating in the end and they will all have to be trailered home after the event which is probably another plus for safety.

As I understand it AWDC already permits it.

So if we accept that the truck does not need to be road legal then what are the resrictions?

[Paul Wightman]

interesting thread, odd quote

We've never met but Ive always regarded your vehicle highly and the skill that went into building it. Me? I just tap away in a barn, Im no hot-poop driver let alone a God - I enjoy building cars though and the racing is a lot of fun. Have I given up competing? no.. Am I interested in UK winch challenges? no.. they're just not my thing. My choice is to race trophy raid at proto class and if that choice upsets people (for some reason?) then thats their issue and not mine . Im not conciously pushing anything forward in the UK, personally Im trying to catch up with the Russians, Estonians, Fins, Latvians etc (having said that if the lessons learned from what I do is of help or applicable to anyone else then thats a bonus )

Jez, my comment may have been over the top and I apologise if I am wrong but you did come over a bit strong on the Devon forum

Lots of views, lots of opinions, where to go from here?

If left alone this thread will get a few more posts then fall off the bottom of the page and disappear in the mists of time.

My hope was to find a common view regarding challenge vehicle specification, bit hopeful I know! If I was to pick over the bones of what has been said I would come up with:-

• Registering a vehicle as agricultural is a none starter.

• Other than the formation of a proto/anything goes/none road legal class (good idea) most events require vehicles to be road legal.

• Scrutineering is the big problem, other than Neil’s MSA trained personnel no one else would be qualified.

• Without a governing body regulation is impossible. With a ‘competition log book’ and a (very basic) set of rules life would be so simple.

• MOT is the only piece of paper available as proof of any form of legality.

• SVA is better but still open to abuse. Those who own vehicles that do not need SVA cannot be forced to have it.

• If event organisers could get together a consistent set of basic rules should be possible. They could still have specific event rules to suit the site or type of challenge.

• A set of classes is a good idea, once again consistency would be needed between events. One problem could be single or very few entries into certain classes.

• Site damage has been mentioned a few times, how can we do what we do without damage? Tyre size will limit rut depth but that’s all. Make every punch drivable without wheel spin? Make difficult sections winch only with no drive from the wheels (interesting concept for the odd section!).

• The none trailer to event thing is no proof of vehicle legality or road worthiness. Trailers should be compulsory! How can you be sure you have not damaged the braking system, suspension, steering, tires etc while competing? Mud on the road, driving whilst tired? Best take the car home on a trailer, wash it off and give it a good check over before venturing onto the highway.

• Being road legal has to be the responsibility of the vehicle owner and as we know there are numerous 4x4 owners who don’t give a to$$.

The challenge scene is young and hopefully in a couple of years the way forward will become clearer. Something may go seriously wrong and someone will be in the unfortunate position of testing the present system, insurance, law, regulations etc. Brussels may get round to putting a stop to people having fun in motors or the tree huggers get their way and we can all drive a Toyota Pious.

In the mean time I will go for SVA because I will be modifying the chassis and anything else would not be legal. I will endeavour to tell my insurance company about all the mods and will probably pay dearly for the peace of mind. I will then be less well off but compensated by a satisfying smugness until rules are changed and my truck will have to be crushed!

[FridgeFreezer]

So if we accept that the truck does not need to be road legal then what are the resrictions?

If we accept an MOT cert it's still wide open - we've had a few members turn up in radical stuff with daylight MOT's, which IMHO would be about the bare minimum I would accept if I were organising an event.

Rather than the minefield of scrutineering, which puts a huge load, and a legal responsibility, on the organisers, asking people to have an MOT is about as close as you can get to assuring some sort of minimum level of safety - brakes that work, seats & belts that keep the occupants in, a chassis that's not about to snap and an exhaust that's not going to gas the driver. Beyond that, pretty much everything else mentioned here can be gotten through - MogLite has an MOT and that's about as different as anything out there. You can get a road-legal quad bike or a sofa on wheels, exactly how how much more open could anyone want it?