Puddles Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 I'm feeling a sick as a pig right now - spent all day changing the timing belt on my 200 tdi engine, put everything back together and now it wont run properly - will barely fire and chucking out loads of white smoke. I can only guess that I've cocked the timing up somehow, but how on earth do I rectify it?? I think I did everything right, but one thing was niggling me, I could only see a timing arrow on the bottom sprocket - couldn't see one for the cam, but there was a purposeful looking web (it's a disco 200tdi engine) so I lined the dot up with that. When the dot was lined up, the bottom sprocket woodruff was pointing towards the arrow, and the hole opened up so I could slide a drill bit in the fuel pump, so it should all be correct?? How the feck have I got this wrong?? How much do I want to strip it all back down again?? and I haven't got any more gaskets, the shops shut now, and I'm supposed to be going away in it on Monday I'm really, really , really feeling sick right now. Heeeeeeelllllllllllllllpppppppppppppppp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Neale Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 I'm feeling a sick as a pig right now - spent all day changing the timing belt on my 200 tdi engine, put everything back together and now it wont run properly - will barely fire and chucking out loads of white smoke.I can only guess that I've cocked the timing up somehow, but how on earth do I rectify it?? I think I did everything right, but one thing was niggling me, I could only see a timing arrow on the bottom sprocket - couldn't see one for the cam, but there was a purposeful looking web (it's a disco 200tdi engine) so I lined the dot up with that. When the dot was lined up, the bottom sprocket woodruff was pointing towards the arrow, and the hole opened up so I could slide a drill bit in the fuel pump, so it should all be correct?? How the feck have I got this wrong?? How much do I want to strip it all back down again?? and I haven't got any more gaskets, the shops shut now, and I'm supposed to be going away in it on Monday I'm really, really , really feeling sick right now. Heeeeeeelllllllllllllllpppppppppppppppp. You've got the pump timing wrong. The alignment marks for the cam and the crank sound right - although I always use the slot on the flywheel rather than relying on the woodruff. There are some fairly good pics in the haynes book of lies anyway - and better if you can beg / borrow a set of timing pins as you'll know it's done correctly then. The pump should be timed using the pin as you've done - but did you loosen the 3 bolts holding the drive pulley to the pump when you fitted the belt? Chances are you didn't and the pump is one or two teeth out on the belt. At the very worst, all you need to do (hah!) is strip down the timing case again and double check all the alignment marks... it sounds as if you've got the pump too far advanced. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 sounds like you've got the timing either to far advanced or retarded, only way is to get the timing case open again & start again, follow this guide & that'll get you sorted. use the 'narrow' slot [not the much wider slot] on the flywheel edge, can be seen with a srong torch via the clutch housing wading plug hole, use a 9.5mm drill bit [the plain shank ebd] to fit the injection pump, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddles Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share Posted August 11, 2007 okeydoke, so there's bits there I've obviously missed. what a monkey. Just got the cover off again to have a look and see whats what - all came apart a lot quicker this time.... When crank key is alligned with the arrow, I can insert a 9mm drill bit into the pump sprocket, but the cam sprocket is out slightly - pointer is pointing at the valley of the tooth slightly to the left rather than pointing to the top of the tooth where the dot is. I doubt this will have much of an impact? ref the three bolts on the pump timing sprocket - yes I did slacken them off, but only after I'd fitted the belt, which helped to get the belt over the adjuster wheel. Overal though, it all looks as it did befpore wih the old belt on, but I guess I've done something I dont understand to the timing and will need to get aquainted with it pretty quickly! Thanks for the input guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddles Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share Posted August 11, 2007 I'm actually a bit perplexed that the inside of my timing case doesn't look anything like any of the images of 200tdi's I've seen on tech archive. There is only one arrow marked, which is for the crank pulley. There are no arrows at the top at all. There is a thick web which appears to point to the cam sprocket, and happens to line up with the dot, but as said, looks nothing like any of the pictures I've seen. Funny thing is, when I tried to get a manifold gasket recently, it turns out I have a 300tdi head. Anyway, I digress.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Can you take and post up some photos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 9mm and 3/8" are two entirely different sizes. You should be using a 3/8 drill shank. Now. Did you fit the drill shank before you took the belt off or after ? That is the important bit. mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 nope, 9.5mm fits cos that's what I always use & it works. & it's what Chris [gbmud] used in his link above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddles Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share Posted August 11, 2007 Calming down now after a couple of beers ...... I'm not very good at getting pictures up - my work laptop doesn't let me get to image sites etc. I'm happy that the web must be a timing mark though as there's nothing else at all to use as a reference, and it doesn't just taper off into the casting like the other webs, it's a bit more purposeful looking. Ok, so I think I know what I did - I used a bar I had in an old socket set which located very firmly into the fuel pump timing hole. Put the belt on - though I didn't take any care in how much slack was in the belt. I couldn't get the tensioner on, and remembered reading about slackening the bolts holding the fuel pump pulley, so undid them, and I think the bar was out by this time. long story short, I made a total pigs ear of it and didn't realise quite how sensitive the whole setup was. So - I've now located TDC using the slot on the flywheel, taken the belt off, alligned the camshaft pulley to the timing mark, rotated the fuel pulley and inserted the bar to hold it in place. In the morning I'll finish off and attach the belt. White90's post was usefull - so if I make sure there is no slack between crank/cam and fuel pulleys, then insert tensioner, tension, rotate twice, then set the belt tension properly, I should be in business?? or have I missed anything critical? Thanks again for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 You should be able to use the forum reply attachment feature & upload direct from your laptop looks like you've got all the important bits in the right place. best wishes for tomorrow's job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 hello puddles... is it all better now.... if you arrive at my wedding on saturday driving something else, i will laugh my head off... oh, and so much for 'figuring it out' you've just been on 'ere and asked a grown up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddles Posted August 12, 2007 Author Share Posted August 12, 2007 everythings ok - I've gaffer taped the roof tent to the Saab and put chequer plate along the sills. No one will ever know. I did aaaactually have to do some solo figuring out as nothing on my mongrel wagon matches anything else ever submitted in print. It especially does not match anything in the Haynes book of ****e. Haven't had time to change the oil though, so I'll drop it out on the church car park while I'm changing the hub oil seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 so does it run properly without excess smoke ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 When replacing the belt you always start at the crank sprocket, then wrap the belt around the cam sprocket - making sure there is no slack on the right side. Check the timing marks are correct and then wrap the belt over the injector pump sprocket and finally over the tensioner. Any slack betwwen the cam and injector pump is removed by rotating the sprocket on the pump a small amount while it is locked with a drill bit or the proper timing setting pin. Then tighten the injector pump sprocket bolts, tension the belt, rotate the engine 2 turns of the crank in the normal direction of rotation and re-check the belt tension and timing marks. At this point you can briefly run the engine to check all is ok, so turn the key and see if the engine idles ok, then rev it quite hard for a couple of seconds. If you have done anything wrong it will be apparent. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddles Posted August 13, 2007 Author Share Posted August 13, 2007 Thanks all - yes it's all up and running now with no excess smoke or popping and banging like a clowns car. I undid the bolts on the fuel pump sprocket retaining clamp without understanding what they did and lost the timing, then did a fairly shoddy job of setting everything up, It was quite easy to get the timing back though, I just had to do everything almost in reverse: Get no 1 piston to TDC (I just looked up through bellhousing drain plug with a torch till I could see the flywheel slot in the centre) Loosen fuel pump sprocket retaining bolts, remove timing belt rotate fuel pump sprocket till I can get a pin located Tighten fuel pump locking bolt, then tighten the 3 sprocket retaining clamp bolts Make sure cam sprocket allignment dot is lined up with mark (or web) make sure crank is at TDC Put belt on as Les says above with no slack between crank/cam/fuel sprockets put in tensioner. ...remove pin from pump sprocket... rotate crank twice and check allignment is still cool. only bit I've got a niggling doubt over is the tension on the tensioner pulley - could I find anywhere that still sells needle type torque wrenches?? Had to use a click type and hold it just on the click without putting further pressure on while I quickly nipped up the bolt. Forgot to take a piccy of the timing case before I refitted it I'm afraid, but I'll take one in a couple of weeks when the belt snaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 don't worry about using a click stop torque wrench, I use mine everytime I change my 200Tdi's timing belt, not had any failures yet Suppose you've got a good satisfied feeling now, after sorting it out well done it'll be much easier next time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Thanks all - yes it's all up and running now with no excess smoke or popping and banging like a clowns car.I undid the bolts on the fuel pump sprocket retaining clamp without understanding what they did and lost the timing, then did a fairly shoddy job of setting everything up, It was quite easy to get the timing back though, I just had to do everything almost in reverse: Get no 1 piston to TDC (I just looked up through bellhousing drain plug with a torch till I could see the flywheel slot in the centre) Loosen fuel pump sprocket retaining bolts, remove timing belt rotate fuel pump sprocket till I can get a pin located Tighten fuel pump locking bolt, then tighten the 3 sprocket retaining clamp bolts Make sure cam sprocket allignment dot is lined up with mark (or web) make sure crank is at TDC Put belt on as Les says above with no slack between crank/cam/fuel sprockets put in tensioner. ...remove pin from pump sprocket... rotate crank twice and check allignment is still cool. only bit I've got a niggling doubt over is the tension on the tensioner pulley - could I find anywhere that still sells needle type torque wrenches?? Had to use a click type and hold it just on the click without putting further pressure on while I quickly nipped up the bolt. Forgot to take a piccy of the timing case before I refitted it I'm afraid, but I'll take one in a couple of weeks when the belt snaps. Oh my god, you almost sound like you know what you are doing.... glad you got it sorted, and you wont have to take the Saab to Croatia.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddles Posted August 14, 2007 Author Share Posted August 14, 2007 you knows it. I'm a sprocket master B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 9mm and 3/8" are two entirely different sizes. You should be using a 3/8 drill shank.Now. Did you fit the drill shank before you took the belt off or after ? That is the important bit. mike. indeed, but 9.5mm is less than 1 thou when compared to 3/8 ........... 3/8 = 0.375 inches or 9.525mm So yes, if its a hole designed for a 3/8 sliding fit, then 9.5mm will be fine. Notice that I didn't say a 3/8 hole ................ you cant get a 3/8 drill into a 3/8 hole (well, not without a press) Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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