Matthew Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 Hi all, I bought my 90 almost a year ago now, the water pumps had a little amount of play since i've owned it and it's gradually been getting worse. So I thought it's be better to change it now, rather than when its shot...and my engines probably overheated! When I first looked at the pump it was clear someone has tried having this off before because one of the bolts has already had its head sheered off. So before trying to undo anything i've hit all the heads to try and break the thread, lubricated it with some "deep penatraing de-gripent" and left it to creep along and hopefully help the bolts release. All of them were very tight indeed, with one exceptionally so. Unfortunately no matter how careful I was I've managed to sheer another bolt. (The pic should show 2 sheared bolts, the one circled in Red was there before, and the one in Green is the one i've done ) My questions is...what to do now?? I could simply refit without using these 2 bolts, but given they are both very close to each other, and together they are responsible for keeping the near side of the water pump sealed I don't think that would be a very good idea! I could continue trying to turn what is left of the bolt, but if it broke before...i'd imagine it'll do it again! Has this happened to anyone else? What did you do? Any help/hints/tips and advice would be greatly recevied. I'm sure with the combined experiance of all you helpful forum members, someone must be able to suggest the best remedy? Surely I can't be the only victim of some idiot not using some form of anti seize copper grease?? I've added some extra pic's just encase they help. Thanks for you time! Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101nut Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 Avoid 'easy outs' or similar as they are generally carp, break and give you more grief. You could try the snap-on/irwin type removers which are a like a steeply ground left-hand 'drill' which grips the remnants of the bolt and will attempt to unscrew it. Because they are siezed solid this will probably fail and you'll swear. At this point find a nut that fits snugly over what's left of the bolt and weld the the stud to the nut with a good MIG blast. Let it set then unscrew the 'bolt' which you've just made ... If it shears off you've lost nothing but it'll be more likely to work as the heat helps break the corrosion as well. There's a demo of this somewhere by Mike Rogers but I can't recall the link ... hang on try this ... stud removal AndyG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101nut Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 Oh, and by the way he isn't Rolf Harris's brother! AndyG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 By the looks of it, the timing case has been off before - there is blue goo on the gasket. If it was me, I would strip the front of the engine off right back to the bare block, clean it up and do the job properly. If you have a good as new front end on your engine, then that's a lot less to worry about in the future. Welding a nut on the remains of the stud is a good idea, but if it shears off, then you will have no choice anyway, but to take it all apart. All the work is adequately described in detail in the tech archive, so you can do it yourself. Parts will cost you less than £100 including replacing the timing belt etc. An easy weekends work to do it all as well, and the satisfaction of knowing that you did it yourself - and did it right. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 I agree with Les 100% You must never use those 'Eezi-outs' which look as if they have a sort of left-hand thread. They normally break off flush with the broken stud and then you are really stuffed. Rather use the better ones, that look like (it is hard to describe) a sort of drill with channels down the side. These never break off. Unfortunately the kit to use them is a bit expensive for the private owner. Welding a nut on can often work if you have a MIG welder. I get lots of practice with TD5 exhaust manifold studs Best to take the whole thing to bits and fit helicoils to the stuffed threads. Helicoil kits aren't really expensive as you really only need a kit for 6mm and 8mm threads as a start. Actually we use the OZ version which may be cheaper, I don't know. Comes with drills, taps and the coils and an insertion tool. I have forgotten the make at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted August 24, 2007 Author Share Posted August 24, 2007 Hi All, Thanks for the useful information..once again! We've tried a number of the techniques mentioned but none seem to be shifting the remaining parts of the bolt. Following your recomendations I'm going to strip it down and do the job properly, I have arranged for a local engineer to come out on Tuesday to drill the block and replace the threads (didn't really fancy doing this myself..freehand! ) but before then I need to strip down the front of the engine. This evening I've managed to remove the rad/intercooler etc and have removed most of the inners of the timing chest, but not the chest itself. Does anyone know of a thread in the technical archive which will aid me with stripping the remaining parts? It was getting dark by the time we finished this evening and it wasn't clear exactly what I need to do from here: I have removed most of the timing pulleys but how do I remove the one circled in green? What else do I need to do to remove the timing chest? Thanks once again, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 You're almost there. That crank pully should just pull off (just running on a keyway). Few more bolts and the chest will come of. Look in the tech archive for threads relating to 'p' gasket replacement (that sits between chest and block). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonk Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 the bottom cog can stick on, there are 3 holes in it (M5?) that u can use to aid pulling it off. a bit of heat often helps too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 To remove the stud cleanly is not easy, but with practice it can be done. If it is possible, file the broken end flat. Very carefully centre punch the exact centre of the stud …………….. spend a little time on this as it need to be in the centre. Carefully drill the stud with a small pilot hole ………. Maybe 2.5 or 3mm for the depth of the stud or at least ¾ of the depth. Then slowly open this hole in incrementing drill sizes until you are within spitting distance of the thread. Using a mig with the wire speed set correctly for puddle welding, carefully fill the hole with weld ……… almost like a deep puddle weld, but continue to build the weld a little way beyond the end of the stud ………. Maybe 6 to 8 mm. Allow the weld to cool and then unscrew the stud with mole grips on the end of the weld. Here you are using the fact that shrinkage will occur when the stud is welded ……… usually it is just enough to cause the stud threads to release. A really stubborn stud steel stud in ali will often remove the ali thread with it ……….. then just helicoil the hole for the complete repair. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehead1 Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 A tip from a blacksmith: If you're drilling out a bolt or stud, anneal it first. Run a carbonising flame over the bolt/stud until it has thin coat of carbon, then go for a neutral flame and burn off the carbon. Leave to cool to room temperature (which takes a while). Then accurately centre-punch it and use a cobalt or carbide tipped left-handed bits, using progressively large bits as others have described here. Left-handed bits have a good chance of withdrawing the stud or bolt. If you're going to grip a bolt, harden it first. Heat the bolt until it's glowing cherry red. Remove the flame, wait until the redness dulls slightly and then throw/squirt cold water over it in copious amounts. This dramatically cuts the chances of your mole grips breaking loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted August 28, 2007 Author Share Posted August 28, 2007 Thanks very much for all the help everyone..very very useful indeed!! I've had to go down the route of drilling the bolts out, unfortunately they were so well corroded to the timing chest, with all the fixing bolts removed I still couldn't shift the chest. Today I had a very helpful gent from a local engine reconditioning company come round to remove the remains in the head and heli-coil all 3 of the waterpump bolts (didn't see much point leaving the other one even though it probably won't be me making the next water pump change!) The timing chest looks like its seen better days so I thought I'd replace that at the same time, managed to source one from Cradock’s for only £53 which I thought was very reasonable. Should arrive tomorrow and hopefully I'll have the vehicle back on the road by the end of the week with a couple of evenings at it. I do have some pic's of the heli-coil'ing if anyone's interested, won't be able to post them until tomorrow though. Thanks again for all your help. Matt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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