Starting Problems With The Hybrid

[tuko]

The past month or so, the hybrid has developed a starting problem, where it it becomes harder to start.

For example, lets say your sitting in the drive way and start the engine and then turn it off.......do that several times, each time you try to start the motor again, there appears to be more drag on the starter, to the point where it will finally not even turns over.

So, what I've done to this point is bought a new start motor, a new start solenoid. Added 2 ground cables to the start motor, and there are now 2 ground cables at the battery to. Doing all this, made no difference at all, still the same starting charateristics.

This has me totally stumped, I'm now leaning towards that there might be a problem in the bellhousing area. For one, it IS leaking like a siv in there, so I'm going to pull all the guts out between the frame rails this week.

Anybody ever experience such problems before or have an idea what my problems might be?

This one really has me bewildered, to the point where I removed the road taxes and insurance yesterday, as it looks as if the hybrid will be sitting in the drive way for a very long time.

Cheers,

Todd.

[Les Henson]

Morning Tuko - long time no see you on here

Have you tried the battery? Try a drop test on it, or temporarily replace it with a known good one.

Les.

[Mo Murphy]

It does sound like the battery .

Mo

[tuko]

Hej Les,

Yupp it's been a while m8, I have to keep better contact with old friends.

As for the battery, it's a new tractor battery that I bought over the winter.

We did try once with a slave battery hooked up to it and even a RRC running with the batery cables hooked up to mine, didn't make any difference.....

Also to add to this, if you leave the ignition key in the start position, (hoping that she might come to life) the starter will get hot as the dickens, thats what was leading me to think that there was a grounding issue. BUT now I'm thinking that there is an issue in the bell housing.

Todd.

[Les Henson]

A hot starter indicates that power is getting to it - maybe it's the wrong starter or there's a problem with the ring gear teeth.

Les.

[tuko]

maybe there's a problem with the ring gear teeth.

Les.

Thats what I'm wondering

I can't remember off hand, but the fly wheel self centers, when you tighten up the 6 bolts in the center, right?

Could it be off just enough that the fly wheel is applying too much pressure when it is off centered.

Todd.

[Les Henson]

The flywheel locates on a dowel as well as the fixing bolts. I would have thought that it would create a lot of vibration if it was off centre. I've never experienced this, so I don't know the effects.

Les.

[dollythelw]

could you pull the starter and look at the patterning of the teeth on the starter dog.. ?

was the ring gear in good condition when you refitted it all?

[02GF74]

For example, lets say your sitting in the drive way and start the engine and then turn it off.......do that several times, each time you try to start the motor again, there appears to be more drag on the starter, to the point where it will finally not even turns over.

It sounds like you have discovered ohms law.

Power = V ² / R

The starter motor windings and cabling are metal whcih has a positive coefficient of resistane i.e. the hotter it gets, the higher its resistance.

When you turn the motor, its internal resistance causes it to heat up further increasing its resistnce thus reducing the current to it. As the current gets less, the motor will become sluggish as less power is going through it.

Starter motors, as their name suggests, are for flicking the engine for a couple of seconds and are not desinged for continous use. Whilst running the starter motor you are depleting the amount of power in the battery which is working against you.

If the motor spins at the same speed once when cold with battery fully charged, that kinda would indicate that all is fine.

Remove the plugs and whizz the engine over - it should run at constant speed - any unevenness could indicate ring gear problem.

But isn't the real problem why you engine does not fire after a couple of turns?

[tuko]

Remove the plugs and whizz the engine over - it should run at constant speed - any unevenness could indicate ring gear problem.

I've not tried this yet, but will give it a go tomorrow.

I hope that this in NOT the problem, as the motor is totally rebuilt.

Bored 20thou over, new piston/rings, crankshaft ground down 20thou, all new bearing, con rods, big end caps and pistons balanced, new roller lifters, push rods, 200Tdi camshaft (new).. Basically everything in the engine is new.

Todd.

[02GF74]

I've not tried this yet, but will give it a go tomorrow.

I hope that this in NOT the problem, as the motor is totally rebuilt.

Bored 20thou over, new piston/rings, crankshaft ground down 20thou, all new bearing, con rods, big end caps and pistons balanced, new roller lifters, push rods, 200Tdi camshaft (new).. Basically everything in the engine is new.

Todd.

^^^-- maybe just turn the engine over by hand to look for tight spots before the battery whizzing?

how many miles has the enigne since since rebuild?

new and rebuilt engines, certainly in the past had a running in procedure and would be "tight" until bedded in - could this be the reason or part of the reason? is there any possibilty of wrong size piston/rings for the bore or shells the wrong size?

again check all the cables for poor connections - terminal faces are clean, crimps tight and clean - any points of high resistance you should be able to feel by hand as being hot.

[dirtydiesel]

It sounds like you have discovered ohms law.

Power = V ² / R

The starter motor windings and cabling are metal whcih has a positive coefficient of resistane i.e. the hotter it gets, the higher its resistance.

When you turn the motor, its internal resistance causes it to heat up further increasing its resistnce thus reducing the current to it. As the current gets less, the motor will become sluggish as less power is going through it.

Starter motors, as their name suggests, are for flicking the engine for a couple of seconds and are not desinged for continous use. Whilst running the starter motor you are depleting the amount of power in the battery which is working against you.

If the motor spins at the same speed once when cold with battery fully charged, that kinda would indicate that all is fine.

Whilst true, that issue shouldn't occur for a lot longer than he's suggesting.

I've driven my car about 20yards on the starter motor (after the elastic band fell off) the starter didn't slow down at all in that period, i just got bored.

Have you tried replacing the main power cable to the starter and all it's conections, inc battery terminals?

It could also be worthwhile checking you timing, poor ignition timing can make hot starting a nightmare.

[jwriyadh]

Since you appear to have removed the possibility of a faulty battery from the scenario, find yourself an analogue voltmeter or a digital one with a bargraph.

Connect the voltmeter to the starter terminal and the starter body. Now crank briefly.

Connect the voltmeter across the battery terminals, crank briefly.

Are the two readings roughly the same?

If yes, you have problem in the starter.

If no, you have a cable connection problem.

Connect the voltmeter between the battery pos and the starter terminal, crank briefly.

Connect the voltmeter between the starter body and the battery negative, crank briefly.

These two readings show the voltage losses of the external circuit, they should be similar and probably around 0.5-1.0 volts. If either show large values then check out that part of the circuit for poor/dirty/corroded connections. Undersized cables or dirty/ corroded connections will also get hot while you operate the starter.

johnw

[tuko]

^^^-- maybe just turn the engine over by hand to look for tight spots before the battery whizzing?

how many miles has the enigne since since rebuild?

new and rebuilt engines, certainly in the past had a running in procedure and would be "tight" until bedded in - could this be the reason or part of the reason? is there any possibilty of wrong size piston/rings for the bore or shells the wrong size?

again check all the cables for poor connections - terminal faces are clean, crimps tight and clean - any points of high resistance you should be able to feel by hand as being hot.

Hej 02,

I did as you suggested, turned over the motor by hand. She was smooth, with no hard/tight spots.

I then put the plugs back in and I can still rotate the motor, with the compression strokes. There was no strange noises that came from the engine at all.

So, the next thing I can do, which I've not done, is replace the starter cable, that comes from the start solenoid. Then from there, I'll continue with the other sugestions, trying to elminate the causes in the engine compartment.

Todd.