gothbiker Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 can anybody recommed which is the best air filter to buy for my td5 discovery? itg or k&n? I've used both on different motorbikes in the past can anybody recommend which is the best? or the best prices? thanks dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 Neither IMHO.... If you do a search on here the subject has been discussed quite a few times and the general view that comes back every time is that you should stick with the standard paper elements because more air = less filtration = more dust = engine wear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 hate to disagree with Tony (when he replies) and Steven but K&Ns in my opinion are great, got one in the td5 and the tdi and run them for 90k miles in the td5 no problems to date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 hate to disagree with Tony (when he replies) and Steven but K&Ns in my opinion are great, got one in the td5 and the tdi and run them for 90k miles in the td5 no problems to date. I should have added "it depends where you are" as you will often not get 12k out of a paper element air filter here without needing to change it. Clean air on surfaced roads, I guess there are no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 Moved from Int'l to Discovery forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 I'd read that post about K&N filter oil killing airflow meters before considering one. No, I don't own a TD5 but I still prefer paper filters that actually catch dirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expat69 Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 can anybody recommed which is the best air filter to buy for my td5 discovery? itg or k&n? I've used both on different motorbikes in the past can anybody recommend which is the best? or the best prices? thanks dave I have been using ITG in my disco 300 for over 30000miles.. no problem at all I've now put one in my Disco td5 .. no problem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Well maybe you don't get much dust in Kent. Don't fit a K&N anywhere where it doesn't rain all the time. BTDT and am about to overhaul my 300tdi. I notice they give a million mile guarantee on the filter, but not on your engine .... This is my favourite soapbox topic, and if anyone wants I can post some nasty fotos of what can happen to a tdi bores afer 80 000 kms with a K&N. Personally I think they should be shot, or banned, or something. But one can't do that. Steve, we find that at 20k kms the TD5 filters are sometimes so full of dust that they distort and let unfiltered air into the engine. The old RR filters had wires across which stopped this happening. All we can do is change the filters at 10k kms if possible, which is only 6k miles. The Disco air intake also picks up more dirt than the Defender side intake. And my Mantec picks up the least, but that didn't stop the K&N being useless. OTOH the paper filters seem quite clean. K&N sucks big time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Well maybe you don't get much dust in Kent. Don't fit a K&N anywhere where it doesn't rain all the time. BTDT and am about to overhaul my 300tdi. I notice they give a million mile guarantee on the filter, but not on your engine .... This is my favourite soapbox topic, and if anyone wants I can post some nasty fotos of what can happen to a tdi bores afer 80 000 kms with a K&N. Personally I think they should be shot, or banned, or something. But one can't do that.Steve, we find that at 20k kms the TD5 filters are sometimes so full of dust that they distort and let unfiltered air into the engine. The old RR filters had wires across which stopped this happening. All we can do is change the filters at 10k kms if possible, which is only 6k miles. The Disco air intake also picks up more dirt than the Defender side intake. And my Mantec picks up the least, but that didn't stop the K&N being useless. OTOH the paper filters seem quite clean. K&N sucks big time! That's the UK sorted for the next 12 months then Go on, shove up some pics of bores. I've seen similar filters here, full of dust, an accidental splash of water from a puddle taken a bit fast turns it to mud which instantly and totally blocks the filter element and then the whole lot tries to disappear down the air intake, gets about half way and you end up with all manner of crud getting in around the edge of the mangled element. Here's a typical example from a 300Tdi Discofairy, exactly as it was removed from the airbox: That filter was doing nothing to make the air cleaner but I wouldn't have wanted a "free flow" one in any environment with that much dust swilling around I am afraid. I can take my Discovery air filters out of the vehicle and bang them on the floor and leave a little pile of dust at more or less any time during the summer. Perhaps they should use the motto: "K&N - Sucks like a Vax" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 We get filters that look just like that. The advantage of the round filters is that they can't collapse. I'll put the bore pictures in the technical archive section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 I use both ITG and K&N in all my cars and I have never suffered from bore wear My td5 has a ITG in it after the third paper air filter was found to have fallen apart after a service so I gave up. both your points are quit correct any moron knows that oil and powdery sandy dust don't mix but in the UK this doesn't apply as it does rain all the time. I have one four championships class wins and have both engine builder and air filer builder sponsor me and I have never suffered a problem in the UK. My Dakar racer had two oil and one paper filter if that clears anything up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 No offence jules, but racing is a lot different to "on-the-road" and the criteria are very different. If you look at a lot of race engines, they run without any filters because they will be at the end of their useful life way before dirt ingress becomes a problem. The fact that car manufacturers could fit foam or cotton air filters but still fit paper ones says something to me, if there was any worthwhile gain from it I'm sure they'd do it to get ahead of the competition. I doubt cost would be a problem, just because K&N/ITG etc. charge £loads for their product doesn't mean it is any more expensive to produce than a paper filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 No offence jules, but racing is a lot different to "on-the-road" and the criteria are very different. If you look at a lot of race engines, they run without any filters because they will be at the end of their useful life way before dirt ingress becomes a problem.The fact that car manufacturers could fit foam or cotton air filters but still fit paper ones says something to me, if there was any worthwhile gain from it I'm sure they'd do it to get ahead of the competition. I doubt cost would be a problem, just because K&N/ITG etc. charge £loads for their product doesn't mean it is any more expensive to produce than a paper filter. It says something to me also, its dealers can't charge you for replacing them at every service , silicon hoses could be fitted buy the manufacturer but they don't there are loads of examples of this It was proved in the early 90s that a club level Comp safari race is the same as 40,000 miles wear and tare would to a normal driving in just one average race which is only 120 miles ish and that is a proven fact. My 1.8 is a PTP blueprinted engine and the old car was a TD4 was a JE blueprinted engine so I needed to take care of them. The 1.8 has not had a spanner on the engine other than servicing in four years racing so the piston wear theories above are massively floored to add insult to injury it has just won its class at the 2007 BAJA I have see the damage running without a air filter does to a newly new JE engine and its very costly and if you do that when off road racing your asking for trouble. my Disco did 50,000 miles over the last twelve months and has been using the same ITG filter for the last 100,000 miles and just gets cleaned every 12,000 miles at its service the truck has 150,000 on the clock and it will still cruse on a motorway at 95 mph and still has plenty of power for a stock disco and minimal crank case pressure for its age. My every day car which drives on and off construction sites and up and down motorways in a climate which is wet to say the lease I spent a week driving around in sand and dust and sea water and for that a oil based filter in so use at all but you will need to keep a close eye on the air filter in a dusty environment. Basically I have drive trucks very hard and much harder than most and I find the filters give smother power at the very top of the rev range and in 13 yrs of off roading and playing I have never had a engine die from boar wear. In that time I've killed 6 x V8's and 3 x 2.25's and a few Renaults turbo engines No hard feelings guy's I just disagree with what you have said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 the piston wear theories above are massively floored I don't think it is a theory in some parts of the world... nobody here uses them so I can't say whether it would happen here or not but Jim seems to have some evidence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 I don't think it is a theory in some parts of the world... nobody here uses them so I can't say whether it would happen here or not but Jim seems to have some evidence In my expiriance oil filters clog up so easily in sand and dust not let ot through unless its not oiled I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 standard every time freeflowing - bigger holes for the air and dust to pass through unless it is new and you intend selling it on and just want to get more power or it is a company car of course then do what ever you feel like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 i think the problem with oiled filters - like the k&n - is how it is serviced by the owner, with a paper element, you remove the old one and put the new one in. Job done, works well and you cant mess it up. As long as you keep it dry and change it regularly then you are safe as houses. Oiled guaranteed for life filters are a totally difference story. You have to clean them, can the manufacturer guarantee it is being cleaned properly? Is it being dried properly before oiling? Is it being oiled correctly? Too much or too little oil? If the owner screws any of those things up - and depending on environmental factors - you could either strangle the engine with a gummed up oily mess of a filter, or allow far too many fine particles through and experience bore/valve seat wear. I would be interested to see what particle size a standard paper element will filter out compared to a k&n, itg or other brand of filter. If they all filter out the same particle size (if properly cleaned and oiled), then i dont see any problem with using them - as long as the maintanence instructions are followed to the letter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61a Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Purely for what its worth I've had a K&N filter on my 300tdi for about a year and being in the soggy south east dust hasn't been a major issue. When first fitted I was suprised at how loud the air sounded being drawn into the engine and was a little concerned that it was not effectively filtering the air especially after reading a few comments on the forum. However, so far so good , I just clean it and re-oil it every 6 months as part of the routine maintainance. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Interesting thread Hailing from the occasionally damp NW of England I fitted a K&N after the second service of my new ( at the time ) 1992 200tdi Discovery. When the head gasket eventually went at 117,000 miles the bores were still immaculate. No evidence of any lip on the bore, and the cross honing marks were still visible. As you say - hourses for courses. Neither of my present vehicles has a K&N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 Somewhere on the net there's a proper study of a variety of air filters, comparing flow rates and dirt passing the filter over time. I can't remember where it is unfortunately, but google can probably dig it out for you. The oil filters don't fare too well in the study - they don't suffer anywhere near as much as the paper filters from decreasing flow over time, but they let a lot more crud through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 Somewhere on the net there's a proper study of a variety of air filters, comparing flow rates and dirt passing the filter over time. I can't remember where it is unfortunately, but google can probably dig it out for you. You mean this one Geoff? Yeah, puts me off "performance" filters too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 Here's the pictures of the bores of my engine. Note that the picture was taken on reassembly AFTER honing. I could not hone out the ridges. Luckily the engine has done 90 000 kms since then and runs ok (with paper filters) It is now at 255 000 kms and will be overhauled properly soonish. http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=17362 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 ouch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 You mean this one Geoff?Yeah, puts me off "performance" filters too. That's the one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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