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Hi I've got a 1995 300tdi Auto ES which I've just found out is an EDC model.

I'm having trouble starting the Disco,

If I go out to it and turn the key so the glow plugs are on then there is quite a loud buzzing noise from the fuel injection pump, and the black fuel pipe that goes between the pump and the filter vibrates - is that normal on the EDC models??

If I wait for the glow plug light to go out, then try and start it then 9 times out of 10 it will fail.

I have found a way to start it easily when the weather is OK. To do this I have two options if it's really warm or the disco is warm from just being run, then I just turn the key all the way and start it straight off with no glow plugs and it starts fine. If it's a bit cool then I put the glow plugs on wait till the light goes out then turn it off wait a couple of seconds then start it straight up.

My main problem comes with cold mornings like this morning. I think it needs the heat from the glow plugs but they're going cold before it starts with me having to switch it off and back on.

If I do wait for the glow plugs then try and start then it turns over no problem but it just doesn't seem to get fuel, I can try over and over again then use my method of switching it all off then starting it straight up and it starts fine with no smoke as would be expected if there was fuel there before.

I had been advised to get the bypass plug for the Spider but having pulled the dash apart, I then found there was no spider there (behind the heater controls) is the spider somewhere else and can I still bypass it on the EDC model?

Any ideas what can be wrong and how to fix it?

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had the same thing with mine earlier in the year when weather was bad sometimes need about 3 goes of turning ignition and letting the plugs heat up then knock it off and try again without actually trying to start the engine.

got a new set of glow plugs from here they still on offer now :rolleyes:

has been fine ever since although the plugs i did take out looked pretty new <_<

and not had any problems with the recent cold snap or the various nights i have spent on very bleak cold country fields this year in my pikey van.

dougie

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Mine used to do the same, New plugs made no difference on mine, The alarm/immobilser/spider is located behind the glove box I would put up a picture but I can't find it at the moment.

I did find when I changed the injection pump to a none EDC one that the pump timing was out by one tooth and having changed to the mechanical pump and set the pump timing correctly it now starts without using plug heat no problem at all.

HTH

Pete.

editted to add link

thread with spider location picture.

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Thanks for the tips, on that other thread is the spider the thing pictured in the 1st picture? as that looks completely different to the old type. Do you know if there is a bypass for that?

On your PM you said you managed to bypass a couple of circuits, for the fuel cut off is that the same as running a 12v wire to the fuel cut of solenoid? As I've tried that and it didn't help!

And finally does anybody elses EDC 300tdi making a buzzing noise from the fuel injector pump when the ignition is switched on to the glow plugs (even after the glow plugs go out and the relay clicks off)??

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And finally does anybody elses EDC 300tdi making a buzzing noise from the fuel injector pump when the ignition is switched on to the glow plugs (even after the glow plugs go out and the relay clicks off)??

Yes, mine does, but I'm not saying that's 'normal' as I've got some problems with mine, main mpg down at 21.

Still that's another story

HTH

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The 1st shot is of the alarm module that contains the circuitry for the spider.

Mine used to buzz with the ignition on but the engine not running (couldn't tell if it was buzzing with the engine running.)

I disconnected a couple of the wire at the alarm module and grounded them this bypasses the spider which basically uses a relay to earth said wires. IIRC there are 3 black wires with an orange marker on one of the alarm module plugs, 1 is the earth into the unit the other 2 are the circuits that need earthing.

Doing this on mine cured the problem I had which was the starter sometimes not operating, but had no effect on the cold start issues.

Pete.

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Mine isn't so much that it's a cold start issue, it's more something to do with the circuits being on first, I'll give a couple of examples.

Nice warm day, engine still warm as it was used 10 mins ago, go to start it, turn key to glow plugs wait (not long as it's warm so the light goes out quickly) then go to start it and it will turn over no problem but it won't get any fuel. Switch it off - wait 10 seconds or so then start it straight up and it instantly fires up (if I do that it then the first place then it works)

So I have a way around it all the time if it's warm - it's just cold weather that makes it worse as I need to use the glow plugs to get a bit of heat in there but then I have to switch it off - wait a couple of seconds then start it by which time the plugs have gone cold.

My one thought at the moment is to try and make up a circuit to power the glow plugs on their own, then start it straight up and see if that helps, then switch them off once it has started. Does that sound a good way to go?

I just can't figure out why it's not getting fuel when the glow plugs have been on, but it does if I kick it straight in.

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I just can't figure out why it's not getting fuel when the glow plugs have been on, but it does if I kick it straight in.

When warm, try unplugging the glow plug relay and then see if it will start after letting the light go out. AIUI currently it will not start like this

Cheers

Guy

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good idea, only problem is I seem to have lost the light now! It worked this morning then at lunch time (without touching anything) it had stopped lighting up - the relay still clicks though

It could just be the bulb gone, I think mine lights every time whatever the temp.

Try the idea above - my thinking is that the large current draw by the glow plugs may (if there's a bad ground) be releasing the fuel shutoff solenoid.

After some more research I think the clicking maybe the timing solenoid in the injection pump - not that I know whether it should tick or not lol

I need to get it hooked up to a Rovacom or Testbook and have a look at what's going on in its head!!

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It seemed to start now - I tried 5 or 6 times, waiting a few seconds as if the glow plug light was on, and sometimes waiting for the glow plug relay to click. Everytime it started fine - but I'll have to test it a few more times to be sure about that.

My only worry is that the glow plugs aren't heating at all now and it won't start when it's cold! I'll probably find that out in the morning!

Yes - the buzzing/ticking noise is probably nothing to worry about - Pete seemed to recall his doing the same

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It seemed to start now - I tried 5 or 6 times, waiting a few seconds as if the glow plug light was on, and sometimes waiting for the glow plug relay to click. Everytime it started fine - but I'll have to test it a few more times to be sure about that.

My only worry is that the glow plugs aren't heating at all now and it won't start when it's cold! I'll probably find that out in the morning!

Yes - the buzzing/ticking noise is probably nothing to worry about - Pete seemed to recall his doing the same

My last TDI a 98 ES was a **** starter replaced glow plugs still the same pump timing spot on so i advanced the pump timing a knatts cock (technical term!) and it then used to burst into life like a good un after that.

Previous tdi all std type pump would start no plugs any weather.

My pump used to buzz as well

Lynall

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My last TDI a 98 ES was a **** starter replaced glow plugs still the same pump timing spot on so i advanced the pump timing a knatts cock (technical term!) and it then used to burst into life like a good un after that.

Previous tdi all std type pump would start no plugs any weather.

My pump used to buzz as well

Lynall

Ah yes but the wonder of the EDC is that you advance the pump and the ECU says to itself "Ah he's advanced the pump to get better economy and quicker starting - We'll soon fix that!!"

So it dynamically changes it for you - move the timing too far it brings on the 'check engine' light and can go into limp home mode.

But I have a cunning plan ;) - that's for another thread

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Well I'm still confused with it...

I'm not saying it's a bad starter infact for the last few days it been warm enough (still a bit cold) to start with no glow-plugs and it starts fine.

My only problem comes on really cold mornings, as it really could do with some preheat, although I've found the best way seems to be just to start it and it will go after a few seconds with a bit of smoke.

It just seems to be that it won't start immeadiatley after having the glow plugs on. Very strange.

and my light still doesn't come on for them

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It was freezing this morning, so the landrover refused to start, the battery quickly sounded like it was getting flat. I went in the other car instead, but just tried the disco again when I got back and it still wouldn't start. I'd parked in the wrong place so I couldn't jump start it, but I've got a spare battery for the series so I put the jump cables across to that and it started straight away.

So that's got me thinking the battery is a bit under powered?

I would put the series battery in but it looks to big for the hole. Does anyone know what the biggest battery is for a 300tdi, the one that is in looks a bit small, there's space for about another 2 inches in every direction.

Or is there anyway of fitting the larger series battery?

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Get a cheap 'n' cheerful truck battery IIRC about 105Ahr about £40 ish fits in with a bit of a wiggle.

Clean battery connections & especially the ground straps from battery to body & body to engine (clean lead and body to shiny) and vaseline them before bolting back up.

I would also think about unplugging your ECU spray some WD40 or contact cleaner in there and plugging it back in. IIRC the glow plug lamp and the fuel shut-off solenoid are both driven from the ECU.

HTH

Guy

BTW I would rig up a switched feed to the fuel cut-off solenoid then if it plays up, flick the switch & that will certainly tell you whether it was that or not (it certainly sounds like it - either low voltage @ solenoid or ECU playing up)

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I'm fairly sure I've ruled out the stop solenoid but if the voltage is dropping it could be that, but a switch wouldn't help there as the voltage would still be low.

I tried taking out a glow plug last night to see if they were even glowing, I went for the easiest one the first one, undid it all the way out, came to take it out and some idiot at LR had put the aircon pump in the way!! So I had to put it back in and give up.

Are any of the glow plugs easy to take out?

Also you mention disconnecting the ECU, will this mess up my remote key fob?

Also if I do change the battery will that mess up my key fob - is there anything special I have to do, I've heard about entering Codes using the key in the door to stop the immobiliser???? I haven't got any codes!

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IIRC all the others are easier to get out than the one you tried.

You can with a bit of care slacken off the aircon pump and move it out of the way enough to get the plug out with out disconnecting it.

I fitted a high capacity battery to mine when I had this problem and it made no difference other than that I could crank the engine over for longer.

Pete.

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I'm fairly sure I've ruled out the stop solenoid but if the voltage is dropping it could be that, but a switch wouldn't help there as the voltage would still be low.

Just because it's new, works on the bench or when you connect a battery across it doesn't rule it out - not saying it is the solenoid but I'm saying it could be the power to the solenoid.

The power to the stop solenoid is actually one of the only things that can stop the engine starting once it's turning over like that.

Because of the symptoms you can pretty much rule out fuel related causes(air, water, lack of). Also you can rule out glow plugs cos it didn't start when hot before & with the current weather most engines would start eventually without any/all plugs running properly.

I tried taking out a glow plug last night to see if they were even glowing, I went for the easiest one the first one, undid it all the way out, came to take it out and some idiot at LR had put the aircon pump in the way!! So I had to put it back in and give up.

Are any of the glow plugs easy to take out?

IMHO you are wasting your time being distracted by glow plugs and batteries as neither of these is the root cause. A dirty battery or ground connection could be, a dirty ECU connection could also be - have you checked your glow plug lamp yet as if that is ok that could point towards the ECU as well (it might be fed from the glow relay though on yours).

Also you mention disconnecting the ECU, will this mess up my remote key fob?

No the key fob has it's own ECU

Also if I do change the battery will that mess up my key fob - is there anything special I have to do, I've heard about entering Codes using the key in the door to stop the immobiliser???? I haven't got any codes!

Check http://www.remotekey.co.uk/batteries/ for changing battery instructions - but I wouldn't complicate matters at the moment!!

How many key fobs have you got? if only one then get another off Ebay (check the type on the back) and then find someone with a Rovacom or Testbook and get them to program it, whilst there ask them for the EKA code.

Ok, just for a laugh connect a wire from the solenoid (white wire I think) via a switch to a known good 12v.

When the engine next won't start, whilst it is still turning over, flick the switch and see what happens.

HTH

Guy

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I have been having similar problems with my Disco, see:

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=17762

Guy H, and others, have been helping me.

My Disco, at first, intermittently would start / not start. The problem being that the diesel stop solenoid was not working (low voltage)

I have wired up the stop solenoid to connector 216 as per the '300tdi without EGR' wiring diagram and now it starts no problem, however I have a 'check engine' light and I think the ECU is in limp home mode as it is a bit down on power.

The stop solenoid definitely makes a loud noise when the engine is not running, I know this because I have wired it direct to the battery trying to get the damn thing to work! (however in doing this I could not stop the engine! :)

I have had my ecu out and on the work bench and had no problems with the keyfob (single button type). I disconnected the battery to do this, and had no problems (apart from loosing my preset radio stations!)

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I'm fairly sure I've ruled out the stop solenoid but if the voltage is dropping it could be that, but a switch wouldn't help there as the voltage would still be low.

Just because it's new, works on the bench or when you connect a battery across it doesn't rule it out - not saying it is the solenoid but I'm saying it could be the power to the solenoid.

The power to the stop solenoid is actually one of the only things that can stop the engine starting once it's turning over like that.

Because of the symptoms you can pretty much rule out fuel related causes(air, water, lack of). Also you can rule out glow plugs cos it didn't start when hot before & with the current weather most engines would start eventually without any/all plugs running properly.

I have tried running a wire across to it and it didn't help. Also when the weather is warm I can start it every time with no problems (I just have to make sure the glow plugs haven't been on first)

I tried taking out a glow plug last night to see if they were even glowing, I went for the easiest one the first one, undid it all the way out, came to take it out and some idiot at LR had put the aircon pump in the way!! So I had to put it back in and give up.

Are any of the glow plugs easy to take out?

IMHO you are wasting your time being distracted by glow plugs and batteries as neither of these is the root cause. A dirty battery or ground connection could be, a dirty ECU connection could also be - have you checked your glow plug lamp yet as if that is ok that could point towards the ECU as well (it might be fed from the glow relay though on yours).

I have just checked all of the glow plugs, number 1 I checked in situ by testing the resistance with the multimeter and it appears to be dead, the other 3 I checked 1st by taking them out and aplying 12V then I checked the resistance as well (partly to confirm that number 1 glow plug wasn't working!) Number 2 glow plug is also dead, number 3 and number 4 glow plugs work perfectly but number 3 glow plug seems to have oil on the shaft.

Also you mention disconnecting the ECU, will this mess up my remote key fob?

No the key fob has it's own ECU

Where is the ECU that I need to unplug and spray WD40 in?

Also if I do change the battery will that mess up my key fob - is there anything special I have to do, I've heard about entering Codes using the key in the door to stop the immobiliser???? I haven't got any codes!

Check http://www.remotekey.co.uk/batteries/ for changing battery instructions - but I wouldn't complicate matters at the moment!!

How many key fobs have you got? if only one then get another off Ebay (check the type on the back) and then find someone with a Rovacom or Testbook and get them to program it, whilst there ask them for the EKA code.

I'll have a read of that - just got one key fob though

Ok, just for a laugh connect a wire from the solenoid (white wire I think) via a switch to a known good 12v.

When the engine next won't start, whilst it is still turning over, flick the switch and see what happens.

Already tried and failed

HTH

Guy

All sugestions really do help - thanks for the time to reply!

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Can't get the damn thing started at all now, will have a proper look in the morning - battery flat.

Interesting to note though that I put a second battery on to jump it from and it still sounded slow, so I put the negative onto the engine instead and it spun loads faster, so the earth lead to the battery needs looking at.

Also got two more glow plugs so I can atleast get that right, got the most expensive type so hopefully they'll last - some German make beginning with B.

I'm fairly sure the cut off solenoid is operating, and have run a seperate wire to it with no improvement, but what's my best way to check - I was going to crack off one of the injector pipes to see if diesel comes out.

I didn't really want to take the plunger out of the solenoid as I have no idea how to stall an automatic

Any other ideas for tomorrow?

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I still can't get it to start, problem being no fuel at the injectors.

I've sorted all the glow plugs and that in turn has made the glow plug light work correctly, so atleast when whatever else is sorted it should start better in the cold!

I emptied the fuel filter out just to check that was ok, and it looked fine a couple of bits in it but not much, so I put that back together and bled the system until fuel came out of the bleed screw then tightened the screw.

If I take off one of the injector pipes on top of the injectors no fuel seems to be coming through I occasionally get one drop. To rule out the stop solenoid once and for all I took it out and put it back without the spring and plunger but I still get no fuel.

I've unplugged all the electrical connectors under the bonnet that I can see would be in anyway connected and I have cleaned them but still nothing, it turns over but no fuel.

The only thing I can think off now is the distributor pump is duff? But they look expensive espically for the electrical one!

What about the lift pump? It had a new lift pump not long before I had it, and I know how cheap they are.

Reading the haynes manual I should be able to turn the ignition on to activate the stop solenoid (won't make much difference for me now!) then I should be able to prime it until firm resistance is felt - I'm not getting firm resistance it just keeps on going

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