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HELP! - 200tdi will NOT start


cabbageboy
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Folks

I hope someone can shed some wisdom on this nightmare problem!!!

I must admit I haven't been directly involved in the work, but it's my car, and I'd like to have it working again!!!

My friend, who's a very competent and qualified mechanic did my timingbelt for me, as I haven't had time myself...

He's done these many times before, as well as regularly working on far more complicated things than a basic 200tdi engine!

Basically - replaced the timing belt - had a bit of a mare getting things off, siezed this and that, but after the initial hastle, things went fine...

After re-build - the dammn thing just will NOT start at all.

It's crazy - stripped it all down again, checked, double checked all timing marks - including the bell housing marks - all correct.

Fuel pump locked with the pin, timing marks all check out OK

Compression checked - all fine

Fuel is being delivered out of the pump to the cylinders (removed pipe to check)

Just will not fire - can turn it over all day, tow start, etc etc - nothing - not a peep, not even an attempt to fire.

Bear in mind - this engine was absolutely fine before - the cambelt replacement was a maintenance thing - it had not broken, just routine maintenance.

Any ideas? - it seems so simple, everything appears OK, but maybe we're missing something?

Thanks!

Matt

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.........

Fuel is being delivered out of the pump to the cylinders (removed pipe to check)

............

Better remove the injector and connect it to the pipe to see that is actually spraying fuel. Or use a spare injector, maybe the mechanic has one laying around. At this stage is better to assume nothing. Don't bend the pipe in the process, unclip it and rotate it from the IP connection.

What other things did the mechanic do? Any other maintenance work, replaced a bulb, changed a tyre, fuel filter?

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Better remove the injector and connect it to the pipe to see that is actually spraying fuel. Or use a spare injector, maybe the mechanic has one laying around. At this stage is better to assume nothing. Don't bend the pipe in the process, unclip it and rotate it from the IP connection.

What other things did the mechanic do? Any other maintenance work, replaced a bulb, changed a tyre, fuel filter?

Nothing else done at all...........Just the cambelt....

I'm interested in the fuel stop solenoid idea - maybe this wire has been dis-lodged/damaged........

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Nothing else done at all...........Just the cambelt....

I'm interested in the fuel stop solenoid idea - maybe this wire has been dis-lodged/damaged........

Was the pump turned backwards at all while the job was being done? If it was it may now need bleeding, both at the pump and then by cracking off the injectors with a 17mm spanner and cranking the engine until pulses of fuel can be seen coming from their tops. Also as you car is now, do you get any smoke come from the exhaust after about 15 seconds of cranking? If no then you have no fuel getting through.................................

Oh yes, also if your mechanic did bleed the pump after doing the job ensure that over enthusiastic use of the primer did not burst its diaphragm as this could now be pulling in air....................

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If the pump is turned backwards it won't need bleeding - how would that work? Air can't get into the system by turning the pump backwards - it would need to suck air in from somewhere, in which case where the air came in - fuel would have been coming out prior to the work that was carried out and you would (I assume), have known about it.

Les.

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If the pump is turned backwards it won't need bleeding - how would that work? Air can't get into the system by turning the pump backwards - it would need to suck air in from somewhere, in which case where the air came in - fuel would have been coming out prior to the work that was carried out and you would (I assume), have known about it.

Les.

The seal on the throttle spindle is the weak point on a pump, it is only designed to hold pressure from the underside outwards and will quite easily draw air in if the pump is rotated the wrong way pulling an internal vaccum. The pump has a rotating disc cam and pistons inside and will push diesel back to the tank quite easily if rotated the wrong way and as it is stiff to turn it can be stopped in a position leaving a vacuum applied hence slowly drawing air the wrong way into the pump from the spindle and even the injectors. Also don't forget that each injector has a low pressure spill return pipe on it, all four join together and bleed off diesel that gets past the injector pintles.

I used to get this quite a lot in my 13 years as an AA breakdown patrol, mostly in Luton where people would park facing up a hill but in a forward gear and the engine would be rotated backwards ever so slowly. The same thing would happen on Vectra DI diesels as they had a closed loop fuel tank breather. Park the car in the warm (daytime) and then when it cools the tank would form a slight vacuum as it was sealed and this would draw the fuel from the pump back to the tank. Ask any Vectra DI owner because almost all of them would have had this happen at some time! (our cure was a hole drilled in the filler cap :rolleyes: )

Air leaks on a diesel very often dont show up as diesel leaks which is why we used to carry a pump to pressurise the parts of the diesel system on a vehicle that would normally be under negative pressure by the pump drawing on it. Pressurise these parts, then you get a leak that would normally only be drawing air into the system, not leaking out.

As a extra point, if your throttle spindle does start to leak a temporary fix is to wack it straight down (not too hard!) with a hammer!

Sorry to doubt your wisdom Les but this is one area where I have had a LOT of experience (read problems) as it was the second biggest cause of breakdowns on diesel engines over glow plug relays........................

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How can it push fuel back to the tank when there are two directional valves in the lift pump to prevent fuel going the wrong way? I have turned a pump backwards - as much as half a turn when replacing timing belts I would imagine quite a few times as some almost feel like they freewheel when off the belt. Would such a relatively small movement cause that much damage and if just a relatively small amount of air in the pump then prevent the engine from starting at all? It's common practise to crank an engine repeatedly in order to bleed air out of the pump, so if air was in it from turning the pump the wrong way, surely it would bleed out in the same way and after a short while the engine would start. The usual symptoms of air in the system is that the engine spins on the starter and there is a small amount of smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe - which eventually clears and the engine starts.

Les.

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How can it push fuel back to the tank when there are two directional valves in the lift pump to prevent fuel going the wrong way? I have turned a pump backwards - as much as half a turn when replacing timing belts I would imagine quite a few times as some almost feel like they freewheel when off the belt. Would such a relatively small movement cause that much damage and if just a relatively small amount of air in the pump then prevent the engine from starting at all? It's common practise to crank an engine repeatedly in order to bleed air out of the pump, so if air was in it from turning the pump the wrong way, surely it would bleed out in the same way and after a short while the engine would start. The usual symptoms of air in the system is that the engine spins on the starter and there is a small amount of smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe - which eventually clears and the engine starts.

Les.

Forget the lift pump for a mo, the fuel system is a loop and the spill tubes on the injectors have a return to the tank, you can easily draw air back through this or the throttle spindle. Not a problem normally, but as I said on my reply over enthusiastic use of the hand primer can punture its diphragm esp if its not been used for a long time. Symptons weak plunger action and massive air leak on the fuel feed, the more it is cranked the more air drawn in. Of course could be any number of things but if all else is correct then its gotta be an air leak :)

Oh the throttle spindle leak bit I mentioned was not to do with cabbageboys fault just a general tip

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Is fuel just dribbling out of the injector pump or giving a good squirt!

Lift pump would be favourite then loosen the feed pipe to the inj pump crank engine should give a healthy flow then loosen injector pipe should give a good squirt with ignition on if not remove the guts from the stop solenoid and try again if still no fuel suspect injection pump.

Ps i have turned pumps all over the place and never had any problems with starting them afterwards.

Last one i changed was on a 300tdi in the middle of a field!

Lynall

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Chaps!

Many thanks for ALL the replies! - I must admit, this has caused me to MAKE time to look at this, rather than being lazy and letting someone else get on with it!!!

Firslty, it's now working! - yippee!

Secondly, my 'mechanic' mate has got a black eye! (not really, just sent back to school!)

The problem? - The pump timing was 180 degrees out.

HOW I hear you all cry! - well, as I mentioned, it was a major hasstle to get everything apart, as the previous owner, or garage, or whoever had gone MAD with a bottle of locktite, and 'fixed' the sheared woodruf key on the crank with a HUGE breaker bar and lots and lots of locktite.......Same applied to the waterpump, viscus fan, etc....NICE!

And some other bodger in the past had made a second 'timing punch mark' on the Cam pulley - 180 degrees opposite from the original one...

So, amongst all the confusion of having to cut things off with gas (like the bottom crank timing belt pulley - ouch!) the pump was locked, but the cam pulley was moved onto the 'wrong' timing mark....

Crank set correctly, keyway at 12:00 - all re-assembled.....

Hence crank and cam were OK, but pump was 180 degrees out.....

Now, it's not totally the end of the story!

It's all working now, and seems to pull ok, but I'm sure it vibrates more than it used to at 3000 rpm! - kind of a 'tingling' vibration through the gearstick, and it reverbarates in the cabin. Nasty at 70mph - 3000rpm!

Don't know if it's just me, having driven a newer car for a while, with the Disco in the workshop for ages....but is does seem to have more vibration than it used to....

Any ideas? - I'm going to take a look over it this weekend, see if anything is obvious.....

And thanks again for all the ideas and support!!

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Whats the crank pulley/ damper assy like ? did your mechanic heat it to remove it? or use a puller on the outer pulley section? if so it could be the bonded rubber is damaged. This will cause vibes and should be replaced asap.

hth

cheers

Steveb

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Whats the crank pulley/ damper assy like ? did your mechanic heat it to remove it? or use a puller on the outer pulley section? if so it could be the bonded rubber is damaged. This will cause vibes and should be replaced asap.

hth

cheers

Steveb

Hi Steve

I was thinking about the crank pulley/harmonic damper as they call it - wondered if this had got distorted/damaged during the removal - could well be the case - would this cause vibration like this??

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