Series 3 109 safari restoration project

[bazz]

Hi, i started restoring a 109 series 3 stawag safari a few months ago (i'm a newbie in restoring, as wel as land rovers, although i wanted to have one since i was three or so). Right now i have everything removed from the chassis and will start replacing some outriggers and welding some bad sections.

One of the first big problems i ran into was (and still is) the removal of the bearings from the transfer box input shaft (the one coming from the gearbox, the box is a of the older type with mixed gears). The green book mentions quite simply that i need to hammer the shaft backwards to drive out the back bearing and then (with the use of some distance peace) hammer it forward to remove the front bearing. I hesitated a bit before i started because i had the feeling they were still okay, but since i replace all other bearings in the transmission i felt i was going to be sorry if i didn't do these as well.

I started hammering and hammering and hammering more heavily and now the bearings do have to be removed for sure, i even damaged the mating surface with the bottom plate as well . Of course the bearings didn't move at all. I tried heating the case with a torch but didn't dare doing this too long.

I put it aside to let it rest and continued with other stuff but i still have no idea how to continue with that.

Any ideas?

The next problem is removal of the castelated nut on the output shaft of the front output shaft housing. The whole housing is removed from the transfer box, the while thjing came apart neatly but only the output shaft is still in place because i can't get that stupid nut of. One of the problems is preventing the while thing from rotating. any ideas there? i tried clamping in a vice with bolts inserted in the flange and a breaker bar in these bolts to counteract.

a lever of 60 cm on a socket and all my weight definitely dented something but did not loosen the nut at all.

Any ideas here?

hope to hear something

regards

Bas

[bill van snorkle]

Hi, i started restoring a 109 series 3 stawag safari a few months ago (i'm a newbie in restoring, as wel as land rovers, although i wanted to have one since i was three or so). Right now i have everything removed from the chassis and will start replacing some outriggers and welding some bad sections.

One of the first big problems i ran into was (and still is) the removal of the bearings from the transfer box input shaft (the one coming from the gearbox, the box is a of the older type with mixed gears). The green book mentions quite simply that i need to hammer the shaft backwards to drive out the back bearing and then (with the use of some distance peace) hammer it forward to remove the front bearing. I hesitated a bit before i started because i had the feeling they were still okay, but since i replace all other bearings in the transmission i felt i was going to be sorry if i didn't do these as well.

I started hammering and hammering and hammering more heavily and now the bearings do have to be removed for sure, i even damaged the mating surface with the bottom plate as well . Of course the bearings didn't move at all. I tried heating the case with a torch but didn't dare doing this too long.

I put it aside to let it rest and continued with other stuff but i still have no idea how to continue with that.

Any ideas?

The next problem is removal of the castelated nut on the output shaft of the front output shaft housing. The whole housing is removed from the transfer box, the while thjing came apart neatly but only the output shaft is still in place because i can't get that stupid nut of. One of the problems is preventing the while thing from rotating. any ideas there? i tried clamping in a vice with bolts inserted in the flange and a breaker bar in these bolts to counteract.

a lever of 60 cm on a socket and all my weight definitely dented something but did not loosen the nut at all.

Any ideas here?

hope to hear something

regards

Bas

First off, Welcome to the forum Baz. Secondly I'm confused ! The transfer case input shaft on a series 3 is the gearbox mainshaft, and doesn't require removal in order to separate the transfercase from the gearbox, and at any rate the method you described is not correct. To remove the transfercase from the gearbox proceed as follows.

Step 1 remove split pin and undo castle nut from rear transfercase output shaft and withdraw handbrake drum complete with drive flange.

Step 2. remove the 4 nuts that hold the handbrake backing plate to the speedo housing and remove backing plate complete with brake shoes etc.

Step 3. Remove the nut/stud and locating tab washer thatsecures the intermediate shaft in place.

Step 4. remove the transfercase bottom plate.

Step 5. with a suitable prybar/lever/large screwdriver withdraw the intermediate shaft rearwards and catch the intermediate gear, bearings and bronze lined thrust washers.

Step6. remove all the nuts/studs /bolts that attach the transfercase to the main gearbox.

Step 7. with a suitable prybar/lever/large screwdriver separate transfercase from gearbox.

Incase I misunderstood you and you and you are actually having problems removing the transfercase output shaft, the procedure to do so is to remove the nuts/studs that secure the speed housing to the transfercase housing and pry housing off together with preload shims. If the front output housing is already off, use a brass or aluminium drift and drive the shaft rearwards untill the rear bearing cup is clear of the housing. then with a lever you must pry the front bearing cone forward about a inch to gain access to the circlip on the front of the shaft that secures the high speed gear wheel (helical gear) in place. it can be a bit of a fiddle sometimes especially if the circlip has broken one of its eyes, but with the circlip removed the output shaft can be withdrawn rearwards, leaving the spur and helical gears and thrust washer behind in the case .

Re your castle nut problem, you may have to get a single hex impact socket and take the shaft to a garage that has a half decent rattle gun to undo it. or you could try splitting the nut with a suitable chisel.

Bill.

[bazz]

Incase I misunderstood you and you and you are actually having problems removing the transfercase output shaft, the procedure to do so is to remove the nuts/studs that secure the speed housing to the transfercase housing and pry housing off together with preload shims. If the front output housing is already off, use a brass or aluminium drift and drive the shaft rearwards untill the rear bearing cup is clear of the housing. then with a lever you must pry the front bearing cone forward about a inch to gain access to the circlip on the front of the shaft that secures the high speed gear wheel (helical gear) in place. it can be a bit of a fiddle sometimes especially if the circlip has broken one of its eyes, but with the circlip removed the output shaft can be withdrawn rearwards, leaving the spur and helical gears and thrust washer behind in the case .

Re your castle nut problem, you may have to get a single hex impact socket and take the shaft to a garage that has a half decent rattle gun to undo it. or you could try splitting the nut with a suitable chisel.

Bill.

Hi, thanks for the reply. I will probably spend lots of time on this forum the next few years. Despite the problems i am really enyoing my land rover project. Hopefully i will be able to drive it somewhere in the future.

The second part of your reply is what i try to do. I have the whole car dismantled and separated the gearbox from the transfer box and the front output shaft housing. The gearbox is close to finished with new bearings, new 3th/4th synchro unit, gaskets etc. I am also overhauling the Fairey overdrive.

all this stuff went pretty straightforward.

The only thing that is left now in the transfer box is the output shaft. I realize now that i confused things by mentioning that it was the shaft coming from the gearbox. i just thought, the shaft is on the left side, the gearbox is on the left side. forgot i was looking at the case from the bottom up.

i attached a picture, the red arrow is direction i have been 'driving' (read hammering, bashing) the shaft to. no rear bearing cup has emerged from the housing. How hard are you supposed to drive this shaft ?

.

i'll try chiseling the nut. i tried an impact wrench, probably too cheap to be even half decent but nothing happened

greetings

Bas

[bill van snorkle]

The only thing that is left now in the transfer box is the output shaft.

i attached a picture, the red arrow is direction i have been 'driving' (read hammering, bashing) the shaft to. no rear bearing cup has emerged from the housing. How hard are you supposed to drive this shaft ?

.

Bas

You are hammering in the correct direction and the bearing cup should have popped out easily.

You usually dont have to hit the shaft very hard at all to pop the rear bearing cup out of the housing as they are only meant to be a light interference fit so that you can adjust the shaft endfloat/preload by subtracting appropriate thickness shims. When working on the transfercase in situ I can usually pop the bearing cup out with a seal pick (prybar) between the housing and the high gear wheel (small helical gear).Were there any shims between the speedo housing and the transfercase ? i can only imagine that the end of the cup is flush with the housing and has cocked in the bore. try tapping the cup in the opposite direction to square it up before tapping the shaft backwards again.

Good luck.

Bill.

[bazz]

You are hammering in the correct direction and the bearing cup should have popped out easily.

You usually dont have to hit the shaft very hard at all to pop the rear bearing cup out of the housing as they are only meant to be a light interference fit so that you can adjust the shaft endfloat/preload by subtracting appropriate thickness shims. When working on the transfercase in situ I can usually pop the bearing cup out with a seal pick (prybar) between the housing and the high gear wheel (small helical gear).Were there any shims between the speedo housing and the transfercase ? i can only imagine that the end of the cup is flush with the housing and has cocked in the bore. try tapping the cup in the opposite direction to square it up before tapping the shaft backwards again.

Good luck.

Bill.

Thanks !, i will try that. If anything my enthousiam to start hammering again is back ! There were no shims present between the speedometer housing. In general lots of strange small things around the car have been different from how it is supposed to be. My list of parts to order is growing rapidly.

Another thing, it took me a while to figure out why the engine looked different from the pictures (which i didn't have when i bought the car). After i found the engine number underneath the thick black coating it turned out to be a defender J12 engine. It is actually a better engine for modern traffic as the original 2.25 diesel but i worry a bit about the fact that the rest of the drivetrain is the original one.

Would this cause torque related problems ? or am i fine here.

regards

[Tonk]

the 12j engine is only very slightly more powerful than the original lump that would have been in there, the main difference with the 12j is that it is smoother and runs a cam belt instead of chain.

[bill van snorkle]

Even a 2 stroke lawn mower engine is a better proposition than the old 2 1/4 deisel. Series gearboxes aren't really keen on powerful engines, but 2 1/4's demanded constant use of the indirect gears which tended to shorten their life ,so the box may actually fare better with the later engine. All the same I'd be saving up for a LT77/R380 gearbox and LT230 transfercase from a Defender or Disco to fit if or when your present transmission requires attention again.

bill.

[bazz]

Even a 2 stroke lawn mower engine is a better proposition than the old 2 1/4 deisel. Series gearboxes aren't really keen on powerful engines, but 2 1/4's demanded constant use of the indirect gears which tended to shorten their life ,so the box may actually fare better with the later engine. All the same I'd be saving up for a LT77/R380 gearbox and LT230 transfercase from a Defender or Disco to fit if or when your present transmission requires attention again.

bill.

Yeah, i sort of get the feeling that also the 12J engine will be hopelessly breathless in today's traffic conditions. We'll see. At least we have the overdrive, that should make things slightly better. We might keep this series for the fun stuff when it is ready and then get a whole new (old) defender to use for daily stuff.

I'll try the shaft removal later today and will let you know what happened.

Bas

[bazz]

Hi,

I am going to give up on removing this shaft. tapping it back a tiny little bit made the shaft turn fluently again.

No way this thing is coming out without destroying anything. I think that it may have been an incorrect replacement bearing or something like that.

I'm putting the thing back together again, replace some other bearings and see what happens.

If it doesn't work good enough i'm probably better of with the upgraded drivetrain that Bill suggested anyway.

The castelated nut gave up after some serious chisseling at 2 places. Things look good there, only need to replace the bearing, oil seal, the felt thing and of course the nut.

i have a general question about bearings (should i start a new thread here ?)

When should they be replaced ? of course, if they are worn but when are they? Or should you replace them as a matter of course anyway.

Some of the bearings in the gearbox assembly are obviously worn, some are looking good. How should you test them, also the thrust bearings inside th overdrive i find dificult to asses. They all look good when they are completely clean.

[Tonk]

some of the bearings are standard roller bearings, just feel for movement from side to side to decide if they're worn.

the taper bearings are shimmed, i think these are the ones you cant seem to remove? these should be shimmed correctly on assembly and reshimmed if they wear/bed in.

there is normally shims between the speedo housing assembly and main transfer casing, if you have none then i'm guessing your bearings are near the end of their lives.

was there any play (up and down movement) in the handbrake drum before you ripped it apart?

[bazz]

some of the bearings are standard roller bearings, just feel for movement from side to side to decide if they're worn.

the taper bearings are shimmed, i think these are the ones you cant seem to remove? these should be shimmed correctly on assembly and reshimmed if they wear/bed in.

there is normally shims between the speedo housing assembly and main transfer casing, if you have none then i'm guessing your bearings are near the end of their lives.

was there any play (up and down movement) in the handbrake drum before you ripped it apart?

Hi,

I went back and had a look and there actually was a shim, only a very thick one (1mm, 0.04 inch).

There was no obvious play in the handbrake drum.

So you are saying when there is no side to side movement (i'm reading no displacement of the inner circel in the plane of the outer circel)

the bearing is fine and can be put back in?

bas

[Tonk]

well if there is no play in the bearing and it feels smooth then its probably fine.

the taper bearings that hold the mainshaft dont normally wear that quickly

[bazz]

well if there is no play in the bearing and it feels smooth then its probably fine.

the taper bearings that hold the mainshaft dont normally wear that quickly

Okay, thanks.

I noticed that lots of the bolts and mating faces were covered and plastered with all kinds of silicone like stuff when i disassembled the transmission. Probably an attempt to seal oil leaks.

Is this a wise thing to do when reassembling ? or should the regular gasket kit be somewhat sufficient.

i made a list of stuff to be replaced and am thinking about using Graddock's webshop based in the UK. It still amazes me enormously that you can find any screw, washer, seal or whatever else on a serie3 just by looking it up in the parts catalogue and order it on their site. I used Paddocks up till now, but they don't stock most of the transmission parts.

Bas

[Tonk]

i use silicon sealer with troublesome areas (could be the hole landrover then ) but on the shims behind the speedo drive housing i've only ever used grease to seal them, never had a problem with leaks from there.