converting an 8274 to Hydro power!!

[Chris Abel]

I’ve been thinking about whether it would be possible to convert an 8274's electric motor to a hydraulic motor, I’m sure it could be done and it could save a few ££

I’ve been looking at hydraulic motors that are available and I have yet to find anything that has more than 1200 rpm, obviously an electric motor spins allot faster so there would have to some changes to the gearing to get a good line speed.

The conversion would still enable me to swap the top housing back to an electric motor if I ever had a problem with the hydraulic system.

I could also get rid of the annoying motor overrun that’s associated with electric motors when not under load.

The ability to winch all day at 100ft min, without burning out motors, draining batteries and killing alternators has got to be an advantage!

Any thoughts on this?

[Lewis]

IIRC Tony Baskille used hydro motors on his 8274's in the past, I think they were used in addition to the electric motor

[white90]

The gigglepin twin motor set up has a tenth of the overrun I have on a standard 8174+XP motor

even with the overrun I cvan't say it has caused a major issue todate

I read somewhere the winch on Tony Bs cost lots and lots of ££

for the expense and desire for an hydraulic winch why not just fit a type R?

sell the 8274 to recoup some of the outlay.

and 100ft per min?? line retrieval you mean I guess?

just throw the rope onto the bonnet under a net.

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

IIRC and if rumors are true, then Tony's winch had about £10K spent on it............and that was several year ago (about 2000 /2001)

Yes, the Type R will winch at 100ft/min ............... line recovery is considerably faster ( 6 times faster - winch G/box is 6:1 in low speed and 1:1 in high speed)...........................

Although winch speeds of that order can be an advantage, I guess you would very rarely use it at that speed as control is everything when it come to winching.

My MM will run at a shade under 50ft/min and its not often that I use at that speed (remember, thats 50ft/min regardless of whether you are pulling 1 ton or 6 ton)...................... line recovery is some silly speed that the winch monkey cannot hope to keep up with and has a lot of potential for removing fingers and hands ..................it will respool 75ft of 12mm in 15 seconds.......(300 ft/min)............. with no 'run on' what so ever.

Chris ........... the gearing will need careful consideration ............ electric winches normally have gearing of 100:1 + (I think the husky is 245:1) ............. hydraulic gearboxes are normally 6:1 - 10:1...................I remember that Champoin fitted a hydraulic motor to one of their winchs, but left the gearbox as standard ................. it took an hour to respool ....................

Ian

[Chris Abel]

Tony's winch had about £10K spent on it..

Hmm cant see how it could be that expensive, I was thinking a a few hundred quid for a motor and a few evenings in a workshop making a conversion plate

But i guess someone's got to give it a try

What would the speed (RPM) be of an 8274's XP motor when not under load 5000 rpm or more?

[honitonhobbit]

Tony's was/is a hydraulic/electric hybrid, when ampage draw hit a ceratin level then the hydraulic assist came in. It was designed to get over the low pulling power of an 8274/high ampage draw. He never admitted how much it cost but 10k was the suggested figure.

Making the gears/complete modification of the box will cost a shed load all for no real practical reason.

Run on is variable in all winches even the 8274, some are worse than others. Despite the fact that I loath using the 8274, I rebuild a fair few over the course of a year and it's relatively easy to improve the run on with a decent service and a decent motor... Or you could retro modify it to use a better brake system like the old belleview.

[D9OSV]

You missed your chance,

The winch casing for Tony's winch was sold recently on Ebay.

He used to use a electric motor with hydraulic assit, he had an amp gauge in the cab and when the motor started working hard the hydraulics kicked in.

He has recently changed back to just electric as the new car is only 1700kg

Tony is correct the Twin motor set up does away with most of the over run.

The 8274 has lots of advantages and as many disadvantages, it's purely down to personal choice.

Jim

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

What would the speed (RPM) be of an 8274's XP motor when not under load 5000 rpm or more?

The no load speed of the warn is 74ft/min ……………… the drum diameter is 3.5inch, so its recovering 11 inches per rev (call it a foot – layer 1)……….. so the drum must spin at about 74rpm ………. the gearbox is 134:1, therefore the no load motor speed is roughly 10K (134x74)……………

Ian

[simonr]

What about a motor from a flail mower? They run pretty fast.

You could connect the hyreaulic motor to the back of the electric motor - like the in-line twin motor setups via a dog clutch stolen from a gearbox.

There's bound to be a reasonable solution Chris, without spending thousands.

Si

[dollythelw]

Although winch speeds of that order can be an advantage, I guess you would very rarely use it at that speed as control is everything when it come to winching.

flat out is a lot of fun, next years even faster

yeeeehaa B)

[honitonhobbit]

Si,

Flail mowers don't run that fast, max about 1700rpm on the little Twose stuff, same goes for rock wheels and stum grinders.

I've got an old Turner SP flail in the yard thats got a sweet little impeller and a 12hp petrol powered pump. Any use?

Jez, take your medication right now and get back in your basket

[dollythelw]

awwwww

[honitonhobbit]

Lie still and behave and you can have a biscuit

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

awwwww

Some one drop something at work and woken you up Jez ?

Not on is it ?

Nige

[dollythelw]

sometimes they make me stay awake for minutes at work, its wrong I tell you.......

new toy pics should be a month or so, stuff to do and places to fall over in before that gets finished

[B reg 90]

Hi,

this has been done before by Maxi drive - you can see the winch in action on some of the outback challenge video's. The hydraulic motor just bolts onto an aluminium adaptor and then onto the normal motor position. To make this work you need a high speed hydraulic motor good for 10,000 rpm. These are expensive. I priced a suitable bent axis motor good for 12,000rpm at £750 +vat - since acquried the very motor secondhand from work. Then managed to get some literature from maxi drive and discovered I was looking at the very motor they use.

If you go this route you will be capable of putting a shaft power of 17 - 20HP into your 8274 (lecy stuff is rated at power into the motor - I calculated that the max efficency you get out of a 4.6 HP motor on an 8274 is around 45%. Hence the gearbox is actually seeing only say 2HP. If you stuff 20HP into it that's 10 times what it is offically good for). Suspect that the gearbox life could be some what reduced. However the reason I moved away from this solution was the volume of oil needed. I calculated that you need to be able to pump 60ltr/min of oil to the pump. This results in the need for huge hoses, valve blocks, pumps and tanks. In a vehicle application where you need to keep wieght down, the lower the oil flow, the smaller you can make every thing. In the above application to get a line pull of ~8000lb you are only needing to put 130 bar across the pump. As the pump is good for 400 bar you are not making the best use of the pumps capabilities. The better solution in my opinion is a lower geared winch with a slightly higher capacity version of the motor. This results in you being able to transmit the same power with an oil flow of only 30liter/min - the down side to this is then the need for a pump and valve block good for ~300 bar. You can then save weight on all the rest of the hydraulic components.

If you want a copy of the maxi drive info I could scan the pages and email.

Adrian

[LandyManLuke]

seems an awful lot of hassle when you can buy a bare milemarker for ~£350 and have the right gearing, that will take the power of the hydraulic motor, and flog the 8274 to pay for a part of the hydraulic installation.

[Lewis]

You missed your chance,

The winch casing for Tony's winch was sold recently on Ebay.

To a forum member . . .

[Bush65]

I have Rexroth A2F5 bent axis motors for 2 of my 8274's, but have been sidetracked with this particular mod.

These motors have a displacement of 4.93 cc/rev, rated speed 10,000 rpm (intermittent 11,000 rpm). Then pump flow required is ~ 50 litre/min for 10,000 rpm.

Torque constant is 0.076 Nm/bar. Rated torque is 24.7 Nm at ~ 315 bar, but mine have the parallel shaft with key, and the shaft is rated to 210 bar (3046 psi). So my rated torque is 0.076 x 210 bar = 15.96 Nm.

Then power would be: 15.96 Nm x 2pi x 10,000 rpm / 60,000 = 16.7 kW (22 hp). So a bit more than the warn electric motor.

Weight of the motor is 2.5 kg. Physical size is considerably smaller than the hyd motor on a milemarker winch.

The pic shows the motor at bottom left. Proceeding clockwise are: part finished adaptor (for the motor), hyd pump, milemarker hyd winch and control valve bank.

[dollythelw]

fortunately hydraulics are a passing fad

[Chris Abel]

Thanks for all your help, I’ve spent most of the weekend looking at pumps, motors, spool valves etc, looking through all the technical data trying to find a suitable combination.

I’ve has a good look at the Rexroth A2F5 bent axis motor but it requires over 4500 psi to run at the optimum speed, there are pumps available that will produce those pressure but the cost rises significantly. Then there is the issue of adapting the output shaft on the motor so that it will take the 17mm 20 spline shaft as used on the electric motor.

I’m sure it's possible to use the A2F5 motor but i think i could be an expensive route for me to convert the 8274 to hydro.

Maybe i should ditch the 8274 and fit a Husky

Just found something else though ill let you know if it works

[landrover598]

Just found something else though ill let you know if it works

Not this is it ?

[simon red90]

hydraulics are very good but in all honesty i'd just stick with an original H12type R or similar complete hydraulic set up. i would certainly add to it...

although if you do, i would look very carefully at the life span of the standard gearing in 8274s as they will not put up that much ****. look at how much breaks on standard 8274s with elec motors. mainshaft top bushes etc.

if i had enough money i'd have hydraulic winches both ends and a dedicated chain driven pump, as a back up for pump failure i would run a split line from an uprated power steering pump controlled by an electric solenoid inside the cab. this would give me instant hydraulic pressure and no loss in event of primary pump failure. i would also have a substantial size tank with heat veins along the bottom. the majority of hydraulic failures is due to excessive heat. and finally i would run a pressure vesel to give a reduced and limited supply of hydraulic pressure in the event of roll over. enough to pull back over the vehicle. i have not looked into sizes of a tank required to give "X"bar pressure for, say, 60seconds but it is a commonly seen feature on advance hydralic systems.

also with such a system as above parts are all readily available and are all at the right price.

[dollythelw]

I had heat issues with the very first gen of Type R, I changed the design of the tank I use and also the grade of oil to HVI46 and all probs solved, I can winch for as long as a long thing now

to save using a pressure accumulator you could belt and braces yourself with a 12 or 24V secondary pump - theres some big flow and pressure units about?

[simon red90]

to save using a pressure accumulator you could belt and braces yourself with a 12 or 24V secondary pump - theres some big flow and pressure units about?

was thinking about that. another ider i came up with is a completely separate from engine, electric drive hydraulic power set up. x2 12/24v motors driving 2 pumps. running a dry sump scavange type tank to enable full flow at any angle.