200 TDI tuning

[Mark]

I have the oportunity to rebuild a 200tdi engine and whilst money is very much an object, it got me thinking as to what could be done whilst building to get a bit more power without sacrificing the reliability...

This dosn't seem to be something that people talk about much - is that because it isn't worth th effort? 200TDIs don't need tuning? the parts aren't easily obtainable or they just don't like it?

I was thinking in terms of the obvious fuelling tweaks, but also along the lines of boring and/or stroking to get a bit more capacity?

does the engine respond to head work at all?

bigger turbo's?

at the moment i am interested in what is possible...

cheers

Mark

[RRX]

Balancing of the internals and flywheel is always worth doing. Making the head flow better will improve things also. Getting a bigger turbo i think really depends on how you would like the engine to drive, IMHO i think VNT turbo's are the way forward as having torque as low down as possible on a diesel can only really be a good thing

[steve b]

Hi Mark,

Was talking to someone at a pay n play recently and his 200Tdi disco engine had been rebored to take mitsi shogun pistons, it seemed to be running fine , my concern would be about how much this alters the CR and what about the swirl pot in the piston?

Might be worth looking into though iirc he said it took it 0.005" over max over-bore size.

Cheers

Steveb

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Nitrous

[T1G UP]

gas injection

[Paul Wightman]

V8?

[RedLineMike]

have a FMIC on my 200 def along with a straight through exhaust & a tweaked 300tdi pump,

makes 140 bhp @ 16psi o boost & does mid 20's MPG

18 psi o boost & 17mpg = about 150bhp at the fly ish

[FridgeFreezer]

18 psi o boost & 17mpg = about 150bhp at the fly ish

Makes a V8 look like quite a good idea - 160 as stock (or 180 from a 3.9) and similar MPG, buy the whole lump for the price of a jazzy turbo and have zero lag

...I'll just climb up on this stake while you light the fire

[RedLineMike]

Makes a V8 look like quite a good idea - 160 as stock (or 180 from a 3.9) and similar MPG, buy the whole lump for the price of a jazzy turbo and have zero lag

...I'll just climb up on this stake while you light the fire

why thank you.....

Strikes match.......

what about those with lowly 3.5's with 134 bhp?

Cant run a V8 on free fuel :wink:

[oddballrovers]

have a FMIC on my 200 def along with a straight through exhaust & a tweaked 300tdi pump,

makes 140 bhp @ 16psi o boost & does mid 20's MPG

18 psi o boost & 17mpg = about 150bhp at the fly ish

Hi Sooty

I might sound a bit daft, but what does FMIC mean and what is the advantage of running a 300 pump??

Regards

Ole.

[white90]

front mounted intercooler

[RedLineMike]

Hi Sooty

I might sound a bit daft, but what does FMIC mean and what is the advantage of running a 300 pump??

Regards

Ole.

FMIC- Front mount inter-cooler

the pump i have on mine is a "wolf" one which IIRC is more tuned than standard, theory being is should give more fuel,

more to the point i was in the right place at the right time & got 3 o them & a day later my 90 ate a pump so it got fitted

[nas90]

I have the oportunity to rebuild a 200tdi engine and whilst money is very much an object, it got me thinking as to what could be done whilst building to get a bit more power without sacrificing the reliability...

This dosn't seem to be something that people talk about much - is that because it isn't worth th effort? 200TDIs don't need tuning? the parts aren't easily obtainable or they just don't like it?

I was thinking in terms of the obvious fuelling tweaks, but also along the lines of boring and/or stroking to get a bit more capacity?

does the engine respond to head work at all?

bigger turbo's?

at the moment i am interested in what is possible...

cheers

Mark

Get a demo trip with Diesel Dave in his G reg blue 90, it blooming flies! he also runs a Met Green Eagle Jeep with 4.6 V8 at Slindon. Then ask Diesel very nicely to build you a pump that knocks spots off bigger this and bigger that and flowed ports. Ask Chris Watts how this truck goes! I borrowed it to tow my Ifor Williams trailer, no hill big enough to stop it

[will_warne]

If your rebuilding Mark then balancing and optimising the breathing (matching manifolds, removing flashing etc) is worthwhile. A straight through exhaust will also help the turbo spool up faster which works well.

A VNT turbo will make a big differance although there's a fair bit of work involved (ask Si White). The results are worth it, though, if my engine is anything to go by compared with a 300.

LPG injection's also worth looking at to give a bit of extra go. I've also been told by people that know more than me that advancing the timing a few degrees can make a big differance on Tdi's. Appart from that its the usual fuel and boost mods and then using an intercooler to suit. The choice of size is up to you depending on how often you'll use the loud pedal and for how long and at what sort of speeds.

[oddballrovers]

FMIC- Front mount inter-cooler

the pump i have on mine is a "wolf" one which IIRC is more tuned than standard, theory being is should give more fuel,

more to the point i was in the right place at the right time & got 3 o them & a day later my 90 ate a pump so it got fitted

Hi Sooty

Off course, can't have been up to propper brain speed last night.

Regards

Ole.

[oddballrovers]

I have the oportunity to rebuild a 200tdi engine and whilst money is very much an object, it got me thinking as to what could be done whilst building to get a bit more power without sacrificing the reliability...

This dosn't seem to be something that people talk about much - is that because it isn't worth th effort? 200TDIs don't need tuning? the parts aren't easily obtainable or they just don't like it?

I was thinking in terms of the obvious fuelling tweaks, but also along the lines of boring and/or stroking to get a bit more capacity?

does the engine respond to head work at all?

bigger turbo's?

at the moment i am interested in what is possible...

cheers

Mark

Hi Mark

It just strikes my mind that I once spoke to Roland at Automotive and he did talk about the 200 head being much more responsive to porting than ie the 300, and that the cam he has developed for the petrol 4 cylinder also goes well in a diesel, re the last I think he is right I have measured the cam he sells drawn the diagrams and compared with both std petrol and it looks as it should work, just timed as the std diesel perhaps advancing it a few degres would be good.

For the rest large bore exhaust espcially the first 4' right after the turbo, it will help spool-up, wraping the manfold up with ceramic, also helps that.

Balancing removing weight from the moving masses and so is also good.

Timing the pump is also importent and the propper pump set-up ( injection time not just timing) is a must if you want to go more that the average tweak and larger IC.

I havent got any experince with the VNT but has surched one for a 300TDI wich is relatively cheap good for 150-160BHP airflow vice, and mechanicly possible to use, but then again one has to do the fabrication off a manifold.

Or shovel out a lot off hard earned cash to either MD or Allard who sells cast minifold to use with a VNT.

Personally I would however for a pure challenge vehicle use a blower with water injection plus the the above mentioned internal tweaks, for a mixed use vehicle the turbo solutions is best seen from my point off viev.

Good luck

Regards

Ole.

[simon red90]

for road use, i'd go with a full width intercooler, stainless boost hoses (lip to lip) LPG injection, aquamist injection, the obvious pump tweaks. electric variable boost just to keep me from being bored, full stage 3 top end. balanced bottom end, i wouldnt really lighten the flywheel cos for towing i'd want plenty of torque at tickover and to top it all off stroked out to 2.8.

[gruntus]

If your rebuilding Mark then balancing and optimising the breathing (matching manifolds, removing flashing etc) is worthwhile. A straight through exhaust will also help the turbo spool up faster which works well.

A VNT turbo will make a big differance although there's a fair bit of work involved (ask Si White). The results are worth it, though, if my engine is anything to go by compared with a 300.

LPG injection's also worth looking at to give a bit of extra go. I've also been told by people that know more than me that advancing the timing a few degrees can make a big differance on Tdi's. Appart from that its the usual fuel and boost mods and then using an intercooler to suit. The choice of size is up to you depending on how often you'll use the loud pedal and for how long and at what sort of speeds.

Hi Will,

As part of the project build on my 90 the 200 TDi lump I bought last year is going to be next on the list (soon have both axles fully refurbished, and I nearly get a chubby every time I look at them ).

As I don't know the history of the lump I am going to go for a rebuild and so this thread may sway me down the route of lightening and balancing at the same time.

With regards to performance I will be getting the intercooler upgrade from Jeremy Fearn as part of the build and once it has a few miles on the clock I will then take it down to get the pump adjusted accordingly.

My only concern with lightening and balancing the bottom end (I presume we are talking crank and flywheel only) is that tickover could be affected and may run lumpy (from my petrol head days this was the experience of a guy who tweaked minis).

Has anyone anyone on this thread had real experience with lightening and balancing the 200 lump? (no offence meant to anyone l!!!! I just want to know what is proven, tried and tested ).

Obviously an upgraded intercooler and fuel pump tweaking improves perfromance but maintains drivabilty.

Is there possibly a degree of lightening and balancing that will (obviously) improve efficiency on the engine but maintain drivability.

All answers welcome and I repeat I mean no offence with the above questions!!

Cheers

G

[will_warne]

Hi Will,

As part of the project build on my 90 the 200 TDi lump I bought last year is going to be next on the list (soon have both axles fully refurbished, and I nearly get a chubby every time I look at them ).

As I don't know the history of the lump I am going to go for a rebuild and so this thread may sway me down the route of lightening and balancing at the same time.

With regards to performance I will be getting the intercooler upgrade from Jeremy Fearn as part of the build and once it has a few miles on the clock I will then take it down to get the pump adjusted accordingly.

My only concern with lightening and balancing the bottom end (I presume we are talking crank and flywheel only) is that tickover could be affected and may run lumpy (from my petrol head days this was the experience of a guy who tweaked minis).

Has anyone anyone on this thread had real experience with lightening and balancing the 200 lump? (no offence meant to anyone l!!!! I just want to know what is proven, tried and tested ).

Obviously an upgraded intercooler and fuel pump tweaking improves perfromance but maintains drivabilty.

Is there possibly a degree of lightening and balancing that will (obviously) improve efficiency on the engine but maintain drivability.

All answers welcome and I repeat I mean no offence with the above questions!!

Cheers

G

You want to balance but not lighten - you'll loose a small amount of weight lightening but don't aim to lighten as it'll kill the torque. If you just balance the engine should rev better without noticably sacrificing bottom end torque which should give you a bigger power band.

Rough or fast idle is a combination of factors; wild cams, lightened internals and poor tuning (down to the difficulty of tuning wild engines with carbs and non electronic ignition not the person who did it).

[SOA 93]

IMHO

Tdi's give there maximum power(not BHP) at around 2000 RPM, most day to day driving is spent between 2000 and 3000 rpm. Dynamically balancing this engine for these sort of speeds would really be a money no object rebuild, the term 'blue printing' dates from the 60's and 70's when manufacturers tolerances were not as good as they are now, or 20 years ago.

Balancing, blueprinting, port matching etc is all very well on engines destined for one make type production racing where modifications are strictly limited, but its an expensive way to get a little increase. If you are not bound by these restrictions then it makes sense that you spend your money where you get big increases for smaller outlay. These engine builders clearance everything to maximum tolerance to get the very last bit of performance from these engines at the expense of longevity.

Most of the performance mods are well known for TDi engines, I wouldn't bother with balancing or lightening, but If funds allowed I would change the cam for one of ACR's, I'd also look at getting the piston crowns coated, Prodrive do this on the Subaru WRC cars at it gives the pistons an extra safety margin with high boost pressures and high EGT's. Regarding cylinder heads, I would look into having 3 angle valve seats machined and valves altered to correspond. As far as I'm aware Land Rover use 30 degree valve seats, if I could not find good reason to not to change from 30 degrees then these would change to 45 degrees, with 30 and 60 degree relief cuts.

Port matching and smoothing on a forced induction engine is nice but isn't going to net you worthwhile increases in performance if your having to pay someone to do it for you. Lightening the flywheel can be used to good effect in getting the engine to accelerate quickly, but on a TDi road engine that spends alot of time in traffic then the negative could out way the positives, there made that heavy for a reason.

VNT's are indeed wonderful, but they won't give you any more power than a normal turbo, its the boost pressure that generates the extra performance. VNT's or VGT's allow the use of bigger housings without the lag associated with an oversise turbo. So you get a big turbo for maximum power and a smaller one for bringing the boost in earlier, all rolled into one, fabulous. Only down side is cost, also I would question the need for a VNT with an auto as the Torque convertor dosn't let the revs drop below 2000 RPM under power any way.

A hybrid turbo goes some way to being a happy medium, for the TDi application it works very well with little losses at the lower RPM, with boost coming in just as early as the standard turbo. Roland at ACR has built quite a few TDi's, in his experience a hybrid turbo and pump mods net the biggest gains.

Water injection I've always thought would be a good idea for off road, but on looking into it it doesnt seem to net the increases you get with petrol engines, and in many cases no reduction in EGT's; methanol can be added to the water in varing degree's but I've not found much info on it, some say it can give similar results to LPG injection.

Errrr......just a few thoughts on the subject

[will_warne]

IMHO

Tdi's give there maximum power(not BHP) at around 2000 RPM, most day to day driving is spent between 2000 and 3000 rpm. Dynamically balancing this engine for these sort of speeds would really be a money no object rebuild, the term 'blue printing' dates from the 60's and 70's when manufacturers tolerances were not as good as they are now, or 20 years ago.

Balancing, blueprinting, port matching etc is all very well on engines destined for one make type production racing where modifications are strictly limited, but its an expensive way to get a little increase. If you are not bound by these restrictions then it makes sense that you spend your money where you get big increases for smaller outlay. These engine builders clearance everything to maximum tolerance to get the very last bit of performance from these engines at the expense of longevity.

Most of the performance mods are well known for TDi engines, I wouldn't bother with balancing or lightening, but If funds allowed I would change the cam for one of ACR's, I'd also look at getting the piston crowns coated, Prodrive do this on the Subaru WRC cars at it gives the pistons an extra safety margin with high boost pressures and high EGT's. Regarding cylinder heads, I would look into having 3 angle valve seats machined and valves altered to correspond. As far as I'm aware Land Rover use 30 degree valve seats, if I could not find good reason to not to change from 30 degrees then these would change to 45 degrees, with 30 and 60 degree relief cuts.

Port matching and smoothing on a forced induction engine is nice but isn't going to net you worthwhile increases in performance if your having to pay someone to do it for you. Lightening the flywheel can be used to good effect in getting the engine to accelerate quickly, but on a TDi road engine that spends alot of time in traffic then the negative could out way the positives, there made that heavy for a reason.

VNT's are indeed wonderful, but they won't give you any more power than a normal turbo, its the boost pressure that generates the extra performance. VNT's or VGT's allow the use of bigger housings without the lag associated with an oversise turbo. So you get a big turbo for maximum power and a smaller one for bringing the boost in earlier, all rolled into one, fabulous. Only down side is cost, also I would question the need for a VNT with an auto as the Torque convertor dosn't let the revs drop below 2000 RPM under power any way.

A hybrid turbo goes some way to being a happy medium, for the TDi application it works very well with little losses at the lower RPM, with boost coming in just as early as the standard turbo. Roland at ACR has built quite a few TDi's, in his experience a hybrid turbo and pump mods net the biggest gains.

Water injection I've always thought would be a good idea for off road, but on looking into it it doesnt seem to net the increases you get with petrol engines, and in many cases no reduction in EGT's; methanol can be added to the water in varing degree's but I've not found much info on it, some say it can give similar results to LPG injection.

Errrr......just a few thoughts on the subject

The torque curve would agree with you about the power comment. The main reason for balancing is to try and improve the bhp figures by helping it rev. This is an area where the Isuzu engine has the Tdi licked - it revs far better so gives you a bigger power band to play with. this, ultimatly, is what makes the vehicle more drivable.

I've always been interested to see what water injection could do. Its a shame it doesn't seem to work very well. I wonder why that is as I can't think of a reason. In all cases you're using the enthalpy gained by the water to turn in into vapour (it has a high latent heat of vapourisation so a lot of energy is required to turn it into vapour ie break intermolecular bonds once it is up to 'boil point' temperature) to lower the EGT. Methonal does the same as water (but to a lesser extent) but is also a high octane fuel. I'd be interest to know whether it has the same catalytic effect as LPG injection and whether there are any issues with detonation.

[66gaza]

For some basic info on the pros & cons of various drugs take a look here, http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/general.../pros_cons.html

Gaza

[white90]

The torque curve would agree with you about the power comment. The main reason for balancing is to try and improve the bhp figures by helping it rev. This is an area where the Isuzu engine has the Tdi licked - it revs far better so gives you a bigger power band to play with. this, ultimatly, is what makes the vehicle more drivable.

I've always been interested to see what water injection could do. Its a shame it doesn't seem to work very well. I wonder why that is as I can't think of a reason. In all cases you're using the enthalpy gained by the water to turn in into vapour (it has a high latent heat of vapourisation so a lot of energy is required to turn it into vapour ie break intermolecular bonds once it is up to 'boil point' temperature) to lower the EGT. Methonal does the same as water (but to a lesser extent) but is also a high octane fuel. I'd be interest to know whether it has the same catalytic effect as LPG injection and whether there are any issues with detonation.

Will please stop it my sides are hurting....

is it 2years to not build your 90 yet?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I am still waiting for the straight line performance test that Will challenged me to with my JE V8 vs Wills tuned TV Fondue

Oh, and the answer to this thread is ( ) ....... A Nice V8

Oh is my tar n feather bath ready already ?.........

Nige

[will_warne]

Will please stop it my sides are hurting....

is it 2years to not build your 90 yet?

It'll be 2 years next summer so there!!!

You know what they say: good things come to those that wait

I think it is nearly time for an update on the build.

Nige, the delay is all part of my cunning plan however if I told you I'd have to kill you