bishbosh Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 There have been many threads over the past few months on full hydro and hydro assist steering. Unfortunately, none of them (that I could find ) lay out a guideline spec of what components are needed. SWMBO is complaining that when parking the Bishtail she finds the steering heavy. I of course see that as a direct request for me to spend money on hydro assist . So, can a grown up please lay out in simple terms the answers to the following for a "typical" hydro assist system: 1. What stroke ram is required for use with a standard LR PS box? 2. How thick should the shaft be ? 3. What flow rates do the standard V8 / 200TDi / 300TDi PS pumps have? 4. How much pressure do they generate? 5. Where exactly should the LR PS box be drilled and tapped? I would hope that the answers to these questions (and any others you grown ups may see as necessary ) would then enable many others to develop their own systems and hopefully reduce the number of similar repeat questions. If my search efforts have been inadequate please feel free to point me in the right direction - you never know, I might even do a tech article if I ever get the thing off the ground! Thanking you in advance...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Bish, I think Nick (roguevogue) put some info up on modifying a standard power steering box - might be worth checking out his vehicle thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 found it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_LLAMA4x4 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I have already got a complete bolt on / off kit designed and a prototype is running ( and did very well in the Scorpion series ). The stainless braid / ptfe plumbing ( normal rubber hydraulic hose hates ATF ) is all worked into existing bits so no drilling / tapping is required and the production ram will be a direct bolt on replacement with no need to modify or weld any mounts anywhere. The concerns I have are over using such a system on a road going vehicle. I am not sure that they can be deemed as safe ( ie. do not affect the steering from original spec ) enough to leave on a dual purpose LR. I think hydro assist is going to be an offroad aid only. I reckon the whole kit with ram, and all fittings / hoses to work with a std LR pump and a 4-bolt PAS box should not cost more than£280 ish. Doesthis sound of interest to anyone as a production kit could be available on the shelf within 2-3 days.... David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted November 16, 2007 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 David, I am intrigued - "direct replacement" of what by what.... As long as the original system is augmented by the ram assist I would be confortable with it on the road. If it makes the original system redundant then I wouldn't consider it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Sounds interesting David. Like Bish running alongside standard would be acceptable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I think at that price for a simple bolt on kit you would have an awful lot of interest- is there a reson why you specify the 4 bolt PAS box?- Would the other types not work in the same way? Shrek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T1G UP Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_LLAMA4x4 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 To answer some of the above..... The 'direct replacement' ram is a straight swap for the steering damper.... that way it means all the brackets are already there but I fear the system might make you fail the mot if used on a vehicle ( AllDef's! ) that wre factory fitted with a damper... The reason I state 4 bolt is that is what I have done a hose kit for and so that is the one I could supply straight away without having to pfaff about.... basically I use existing ports and T into them.... Price is subject to checking but I don't think that price is far off the mark at all..... David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon red90 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 David,I am intrigued - "direct replacement" of what by what.... As long as the original system is augmented by the ram assist I would be confortable with it on the road. If it makes the original system redundant then I wouldn't consider it. thought that was hydro assist, to assist the box, not replace it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T1G UP Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 thought that was hydro assist, to assist the box, not replace it? i guess it's adding a ram in stead of the steering damper.So not replacing anything hydraulic only adding to the system by T ing into the hoses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted November 16, 2007 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 A ha! Makes sense now! I presume having a ram negates the need for a damper anyway? How are you attaching to the drag link? Via a defender swan neck? If so, what do us poor RR and disco folk do? How about a beefier version of the QT sumo bar clamp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_LLAMA4x4 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 A ha! Makes sense now!I presume having a ram negates the need for a damper anyway? How are you attaching to the drag link? Via a defender swan neck? If so, what do us poor RR and disco folk do? How about a beefier version of the QT sumo bar clamp? Correct, the proto uses the Defender swan neck.... a beefed up clamp on jobby sounds the obvious way for RRC ? Disco fitment... David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon red90 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 A ha! Makes sense now! not wanting to pick faults and problems, but would that not be vulnerable replacing the steering damper? i'd prefer it to be on the reverse of the axle casing like rouge vogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robhybrid Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 The system Dave (lama) talks of has been under arduous test and development for the last 12 months or so. Various ram bore options have been looked into tried and tested. The idea of putting it into the position that was previously occupied by the steering damper on a defender allows the ram to be kept high up reducing the risk of being damaged, this also makes pluming simpler neater and less vulnerable. The original intention of this kit is for it to be a straight bolt on kit mainly for helping out the steering when larger tires have been fitted, for example when people create winch challenge style vehicles. This kit helps reduce the effort required to turn the steering but also reduces the load on the steering box, I personally know of at least a couple of steering boxes that have failed after serious winch challenge competition use/abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted November 18, 2007 Author Share Posted November 18, 2007 All very interesting, but we are going off topic and down the line of an off the shelf solution (which sounds very good BTW) which was not the original intention of this thread. So, can anyone post up what specs they actually have used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....+ram&page=2 http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=8477&hl= http://rockstomper.netfirms.com/shoppingca...products_id=128 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 On the TD5 the front hubs have the connection for the drag link on both sides I'm thinking one of these can be used to connect a Ram to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted November 18, 2007 Author Share Posted November 18, 2007 Some interesting reading there Tony. Looks like an 8" stroke 1.5" dia ram is about right. Will be interested to see details of David Llama's system and how to tee into the existing pipework.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Nicks set up shows easy connecting of the hoses. the Ram/Kit from Rockstomper is only $225 ridiculously cheap at the Moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 On the TD5 the front hubs have the connection for the drag link on both sidesI'm thinking one of these can be used to connect a Ram to. I looked at doing that when I did mine but was finding all sorts of difficulty'swith the ram crossing over with the panard rod and drag link, It was all just a bit too tight. If or when I go full hydro I'll use that type of swivel and move the panard rod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Thanks Steve saves me hunting for another Hub any pics/info on your set up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 To answer some of the above..... The 'direct replacement' ram is a straight swap for the steering damper.... that way it means all the brackets are already there but I fear the system might make you fail the mot if used on a vehicle ( AllDef's! ) that wre factory fitted with a damper... The reason I state 4 bolt is that is what I have done a hose kit for and so that is the one I could supply straight away without having to pfaff about.... basically I use existing ports and T into them.... Price is subject to checking but I don't think that price is far off the mark at all..... David I originally did mine to replace the steering damper but it was causing too much flexing of the panhard rod and bush's as it was a lot of force going through the steering. It also did some odd things as the suspension when through its range of movement. I then changed it to go from the axle case to the drag link at the swivel end which seems to work better and it has increased panhard rod bush life many times over as a lot of the steering force is going directly back to the axle not to the chassis. Only trouble is that because the ram can not meet the panhard rod on its center line it does cause it to flop back and for on the track rod end with changes of direction. I don't notice t when driving at all but it doesn't quite look right. Im in the middle of trying to sort out a Mk3 version which I think will fix that problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Thanks Steve saves me hunting for another Hubany pics/info on your set up? Will sort some for you first thing and post them tomorrow night. I also whent for an uprated pump as it was slow at tick over and maneuvering at low speed which is when you need it most. The pump made all the difference and I think it was one of the most worth while mods i've done. It makes such a difference, When your nose down in a gully with all the weight on the front you can still steer with the palm of your hand. You can whip the steering round effortlessly even when the lockers are in making it much easier when your trying to steer through trees etc when you want to blast up a bank or through a sticky patch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Sounds V promising Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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