Roll Cages

[reads90]

save the pics in the gallery here

then they'll be available all the time

Don't know but the grey 90 on the front lives in Eastleigh. Spoken to the bloke a couple of times and does not really do much with the truck

[jules]

anyone got anything to say good or bad to say about these cages?

You could also look at the 3M web site there no too bad I've seen the work on there racers.

[Tonk]

link?

[jules]

I am wondering who on this site has actualy put a car in the situation that warents all these extra renforcments to the out riggers.

I have been in a poorly driven hybrid at a race meeting the drive lots control on a bend and landed on the top right corner of its windscreen at about 50-60mph then continued to roll another six time before coming to rest on its nose for 15 sec then fall back onto its wheels.

mid summer so the ground was like rock

The cage damage was a 17mm bend to the brace between the front and rear hoops where the big impact had been absorbed by the cage.

Thats it

no out riggers gave way

no other braces fractured or bent

only the front hoop and the brace were replaced before that car was back out racing again.

But to look at you could not see anything wrong.

The work you talking about doing is not even do to a WRC car.

I think you going a bit over board with this thread IMHO

As I have had a previous similar roll that resulted in the old cage suffering 10-15 fractures due to poor build but nothing gave way and we walked away from that to.

Green laning and challaging if a very far cry from racing like it or not .

[Diff]

Further to what Jules has said, I would just like to add that different designs of roll cages often have different purposes. A vehicle used for trialling or challenges may have more of a requirement for outright strength to fend off trees and prevent any serious damage to the vehicle in the event of a roll, enabling the vehicle to be righted and the vehicle to continue without any repairs being necessary. However a lighter, less rigid cage structure, will not prevent damage to the vehicle, but may still provide the occupants with protection from serious harm.

It is important to note that a well designed cage, which does deform to SOME extent, can save the occupants from serious whiplash injury and broken ribs(from the harness) by absorbing more of the impact force as it deforms than a very rigid caged vehicle will.(crumple zones if you like)

The downside is that there may be large vehicle repair costs.

Providing the cage design meets the requirements of the competition rules, or use to which you expect to put it to, then you can use what you like. BUT if you use a cage that is NOT built to a specific competition spec, eg MSA blue book, you may never know how well it is going to protect you or the vehicle.

I have flipped and rolled several off road vehicles, and I can tell you that sometimes the forces on your head, arms and legs are enormous as they try to fly around the vehicle. It is often impossible to stop your head and limbs from bashing into anything within reach.

My cars roll structures were of the 'overbuilt' type so there was no deformation of the cages.

Just some thoughts. Most importantly of all is to decide what you want from your cage. If you think that at some time in the future, you may want to compete. It would be wise to make sure that your cage choice will meet the specifications demanded by that particular club. For example there can be different requirements for an ARC club than a local 4x4 club for example.

Regards,

Diff

[V8CAMEL]

anyone got anything to say good or bad to say about these cages?

they will be to ARC spec and he will get them logbooked for you if you want that done.

[V8CAMEL]

link?

not me personally but the team mate at an winch event rolled the rangie and ended upside down in a stream.

The middle of the cage above the windscreen took the brunt of the force and deflected by about 4 inches.

The 6mm 150x150mm outriggers that the front cage was attached to deflected by about 25 mm.

if the outriggers shown on the piccies were used then the deflection of the outrigger would probably be a little more.

paul

[series3_mad]

What would the second set of mountings on a six point cage look like for a series 3.

[white90]

I do agree with Jules on this I also see the point Nigel/Diff are making

in a winch challenge/greenlaning I use the 90 for I'm unlikeley to have a high speed roll similar to a rally car would possibly suffer.

the old video of Chris watts in the series rolling badly with a rollover bar made of scaffold showed that anything is proably better than nothing.

the pics of Jules racer after a heavy high speed roll made my mind up at the time re a cage supplier

subsequent lots of others have appeared and some very nice cage designs have appeared too.

you could strengthen everything outriggers/crossmember/chassis but where to stop?

once it becomes a chieftan tank?

some excellent replies on a good thread.

[Diff]

Hi Tony, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that either an 'indestructable' type or a lighter or less well reinforced type was better than the other.

I meant that different types have their virtues and vices. I feel as long as the person choosing the design of cage has thought about what he wants to achieve then that is what matters.

There is a view that a cage which is not built to competition spec may be dangerous. I do not subscribe to this view. Any cage will offer more protection than the standard landrover body/roof structure on its own.

A cage which is not fitted to reinforced outriggers or chassis members will offer much more protection to the ocupants than no cage at all. Though some types will not pass scrutineering in some clubs.

An example of better than nothing is the military roll hoop fitted to the top body cappings. Even with reinforced body, it will not offer the same protection as a cage welded to the chassis. It and the body will be deformed in a roll, BUT it is much better than relying on hood sticks.

Regards,

Diff

[MogLite]

in a winch challenge/greenlaning I use the 90 for I'm unlikeley to have a high speed roll similar to a rally car would possibly suffer.

Greenlaning - yes I agree

But challenges - no way. Sure there won't be the high speed rolls, but rolling down a hillside and you'll gather momentum pretty quickly.

Quarries where challenges are often held, frighten the cr@p out of me. All those cliff faces with no barriers frighten me, driving/falling off an edge like that, and I'd want all the re-enforced crossmembers I could get hold of.

[jules]

When rolling down a bank there is not the huge first impact that a racer sufers any MSA,ARC,FIA cage will cope with keeping the ocupants safe as long as there seats and hernisses hold (next issue sorry)

There is not huge shock loading to the cage

You will be more likly to roll down a bank on a challage which (I know the rules but lets face it) there is a likly hood of not haveing the proper seat/safety belt fasend this is more of a issue (I am gilty of this during challanges). Ok large rock don't do cages much good and can rapiedly weaken them

Ass bad ass as the challages are the safety level is very good you are going slow enough to see the dangers and drive to suit them. If you dont you diserve what comes

Before anyone askes the two freelanders are FIA cages

The 90 was built by Pete Barret (stunning services) his mate that does the bending and welding is a MSA scrutineer so Tony your cage will hold out better than most.

Any well made good quality cage will keep you safe all you need to do is not turn it into a tumble dry impresion.

The rule of thumb is that once it has been use ie heavy role it need to be rebuilt or replaced.

[B reg 90]

I built my own internal/external cage for my hardtop 90 to the ARC spec's. Was not that hard to do with a bit of patience and loads of time. I now have the knowledge that it is built right. I say this after spending money on having a cage fitted to a SII by others and being disapointed to say the least. However you need to be confident in your welding, I cheated and got a friend who is a proffesional welder to come and do the business after I had tacked the cage together.

As for bolting to the out riggers on a 90 - ARC rules allow the one bolt fastening to an existing outrigger as depicted in the pictures. Would suggest that the outrigger needs some reinforcement though. If you want to be ARC legal though, the reinforcement, if you fit it, must be in 6mm plate! Total overkill in my mind when you can opt not to plate it at all and the scrutineer will still be happy.

I don't like the 'bolt' together cages. To me these are flawed designs. In big roll the forces are being transmitted into tubes that do not run straight and are loacted on to poxy week out riggers - these will buckle and distort due to their shape at significantly lower forces when compared to a tube that runs straight to the chassis rails.

My opinion is that the ARC rules, while restrictive, give a good starting point for a logical cage that is tried and tested. By all means design your own, but do you want to be the crash test dummy?? Handly some bloke in a flat cap took these risks in the 60's, so why repeat?

As a minimum I would go for the following:

1/. Front hoop locating onto the existing (reinforced) outrigger or if you realy want to add wieght a new outrigger. If you stick with the existing outrigger, then add the reinforcement to the bottom and sides, not the top. This is based on the assumption that the force on the out rigger will be a down ward one, i.e. you've landed on your roof. The standard outrigger will buckle on the bottom edge where the hole is that 'should' let out all the mud. This is the bit you should reinforce.

2/. Rear hoop welded to the A frame cross member

3/. Diagonal in rear hoop, prefferably 2.

4/. Rear stays that are straight and land on chassis rails as far back as possible. Locating onto the rear cross member outer edges is not ideal in my book as in a heavy roll the cross member arms will just fold rear ward allowing the cage to fold flat onto your head.

5/. Tube as per ARC and no mid length joins.

A view,

Adrian

[JST]

Mine has very had a great deal of plate welded on to the outriggers, rear chassis leags and for the main hoop.

Matt, you are more than welcome to come over and have a look if you like.

[Matt Neale]

Mine has very had a great deal of plate welded on to the outriggers, rear chassis leags and for the main hoop.

Matt, you are more than welcome to come over and have a look if you like.

Thanks James - I might well take you up on that.

I've emailed North Off road, but no reply as yet. Got a few other enquiries out at the moment too

I'll be in touch next week if that's ok - away at 7 sisters with the J33P club this weekend!

Cheers,

Matt

[Turbocharger]

Matt - while you're at 7S have a peer at the mounts for my and Keir (TroddenMasses) cages too - mine's a belt and braces ARC-spec cage while his is largely similar but with less concession to load space, a "better than nothing" cage (although that doesn't do it justice). Either way, for the mounts I wouldn't have anything less than saddles on the chassis and beefed outriggers.

FYI, Keir reckons his cage was around £750 fitted, mine was similar. Both are from Tornado Motorsport, run by a mate of mine.

[Les Brock]

All the mounts on mine are plated all round in 6mm plate...outriggers/chassis legs etc....took bluddy ages as well, I'm at 7S as well if you want a look

[white90]

Diff

I wasn't trying to criticise in any way I was agreeing with you and Nigel.

Andy quarries I give you could see you ending up at a rate of knots.

I'm hoping NorthernChris will stump up on this thread as he was a builder of cages for Rally cars I invited him over, I see he's found the classifieds section already

I would dearly like a cage like Jst's or Nigels but removing one to fit another is out of the question

if it gets rolled and needs a new one I'll look into it again.

mine has been welded to the front out riggers and the jackable sills, not my prefered choice but it is done now.

the cage is made from BS1387 heavy which was listed in the ARC book for cages when I last looked.

the one thing is it gives a form of protection that wasn't there with just the hard top and makes me feel safer

and for the price at the time was a good buy.

[northernchris]

What are people looking for in a roll cage,i think some people are missing the point to a roll cage!!! A cage is made to protect the driver/co-driver in the event of a crash,the make up of the cage is designed to deform and absorb the energy of the impact,yes fair enough the body work might not be so happy but you will still be there to play in your landy again.

On the other hand you have say a 52mm external cage and you have a big off yes the cage dousnt touch the body work but you inside are taking a high proportion of the energy of the impact through your harrnesses. That is why i use 45mm cds 2 tube for all my cage work NOT gaspipe.Have a look in the MSA blue book for cage specs.

The cage in the above pics which bolts to the silver leg on the front outrigger the same as a SD cage if that was dropped from any height the roof would just try and crush like a coke can.....

Regards Chris

[Diff]

Hi Tony, I realise that , after I re looked at my earlier post, I thought I might have given the impression that my view was that only 'indestructable' cages were any good. So I just thought I would clarify that that wasn't the case

Regards,

Diff

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Interesting thread here, with some valid comments for all, however, if you take a step back there are IMHO some key points with cages, many of the ones I see in NON Competition (ie were there is not a set cage spec like comp safaris Modifieds and supermods etc) then there are often some well meaningly made cages, that I feel are not anywhere near as good as the ocupant(s) think they are protected.

1. Cages whatever the design and or tube used are only as good as the mounts. Fitting 50mm CDS 3.00+ wall to a chassis top, or welding to the side of the chasis is next to a waste of time - if you have a big shunt (an bear in mind a 90 rolling over involves quite an amount of weight without the added impact forces of say a comp safari racer) then there is a very strong risk that the mountings being nothing more than the chassis rial of say 1.8mm thick will either tear away or puntunce allowing the superb cage to fall through - I have seen this many a time.

2. Mountings for cages therefore need to be load bearing, and fixed to a section of the rail of the chasis which is equally strong enough.

Therefore have the hoop connect to the 2 tube outriggers with what are in effect exhaust clamps again IMHO a waste of time and effort, and a ver very very false sense of security. These tubes will not be man enough to withstand the forces placed on it if all goes horribly wrong, and as for the superb exhaust clamps - Jeeeeeeeez...........

The chassis has good mounting points for a cage, front - the front outriggers, but these need to be beefed up from the stad thickness, I would suggest with 6mm plate profiled to form at the minimum a 'n' section over the top and sides, better still would be a RHS section outrigger welded and braced to the existing one. At the rear the hoop should come down to the tops of the chassis again with 6mm plates welded into the chassis, the cage then equally to have a 6mm plate and these bolted together with siutable bolts. Better still is to have the cgae welded top the chassis, but understandable there are reasons why many don't want to do this. There is a section in the various rules books RAC MSA FIA AWDC ARC all of which devote space to connections joins and designs, many follow similar paths - and for VERY good reason.

3, Welding. Ah yes, some of the joys I have seen over the years beggar belief. If you are building a cage, and you are NOT a good compentant welder - DON'T frankly......do not trust you life to a cage than isn't welded up properly. Two points here, . First, the QUALITY of the weld, bear in mind in a roll if you cage welding is not good enough tubes will break off (seen this too) and then you have a sharp tube waggling around, just the thing to impale you or passenger - not nice......I have seen cages literally fall apart, on what was a minimal roll.....

Second "FishMouths"....these are the joints to join the tubes togther, difficult, and very time consuming, but good fishmouths along with clean well prepped metal mean a quality joint, cutting the tube "Close enough" then filling with MIG the huge holes is not going to do much good in a big shunt, it will not fool mother nature and several tons per sq inch bearing down on it.

4. Use propertube, if it is not CDS and the right thickness, or BS1387 or higher then frankly don't bother. Quality is the name here not price, how much is your, your passenger or spectators life worth ?...seriously.........

Most people accept the AWDC has a good and well thought out set of rules, for there "Comp" cages your looking at CDS minimum yield strength 350 N/sq.mm or BS1387 44.3mm OD with 3.2mm wall for 4x4s up to 1000kg (thats yer 90 out of it) and for 4x4s over this weight 48.00mm 3.2mm wall.

MSA say racing cars are 48.3mm 2.6mm wall or with sm,=maller stuff for either lighter cars or built and tagged pre 95 (section Q1.3). ARC (and many think their rules are OTT ?) - they want 48-48.8 OD 3.2mm wall 6mm Mounting plates and BS1387 320-350N/sq mm Yeild. Frankly they are all in agreement.

5. The further out the cage is mounted the more imprtnat the mounts / tube / fixing are. Inside the cage for strength you do need a diagnal. Walk up to a SD cage bang it hard on the outside and see and here how it moves - it is more about "Some" protection and also good for the body, I would not like to have a big "Off" in ANY Caged 4x4 without a cross. Again for the cross to be effective it needs to go down to the floor base and not some point higher up...pics in all the tech manual agree this too. Having a cross above YOUR head to protect you and leave you passenger out of this extra protection is why I like the double braces, and why I have mine, I guess from years of competiting I have had a few shunts, seen mnay and it is a "Waking up" moment each time, a good cage can often look dreadfull after the event, chassis bent and outriggers moved hugely, basically everything mangled up and bent to hell, but, still complete ....and has done its job, all welds still connected and all joints still connected, a proper job.

6. The cage itself. I bought 2 front hoops from a well know 2 letter named company. They were junk. I phoned and chatted to many before I ordered, most compnaied couldn';t actually fit my requests (which were basic I was trying to save time and be lazy) he said "these are fine"...the wall showed signs of heavy filure under the radius of the bend (this is due to either and poor metal too tigh a radius and poor practises) and as such then went back on the TNT lorry for full refund,. Had a bit of an arguement, he shut up when I let him have it full volume, explainaed my background and asked if he would like pictures to show what a cage should look like ?...refund came 24 hoyurs later !.....maybe the comment about I had pics and would ask the club mags to show them as "BEWARE" - probably had no effect cos his cages were "The Business" yeah right..............

7. By now you have an idea what I (FWIW) and the major Organizations look for, so now think, and look at the photos agin at the top.

A flimsy bracket on top of the outrigger, a piece of FKW from there up to the cage, this is bolted with 4 bolts at wing height (????) and then the cgae above this. I'm sure this will be ok ? (thats sarcasm by the way) just what is going tho happen with a big crash with all the weight of say a 90 bearing down on this werid unit ?....bolts shear ? plates tear off, the whatever the steel contraption is between it all, ....Is this going to give you the protection that a 1 continous loop to chassis with 6mm plate mounts is going to give you ?...I don't think so....

Rear ?....sorry its pathetic.

Many of the cages made are BETTER TAHN NOTHING. BUT

Why bother to go to the hassle and cost of a cage that is "Better Tahn Nothing" ?....do it properly and have something that gives you as much peace of mind as you can.

Proper speced tube, the right OD and ID for the job / 4x4

Proper joints / proper quality welding

Proper mounting (they do take time but are the absolute building blocks of a good rather than poor cage)

Proper HT Bolts with sensible and proper Connectors.

Properly formed quality bends, no wall faiklure, distortion, crimping tec, wall afilure is what happens when you cage has done its job - not before !

As I siad unfortunatley many people buy off the shelf, poorly made, poorly thought out cages, built to a price and not built to a specification, they will say they are value for money - they may be, but as I sioad earlier what is the value of your life, all the cages off the shelf / made to a price are not cheap - so go the extra hog and get a proper one.....

DO NOT underestimate a roll, even on play days some can be immensely powerfull backwards end over end particulary....

Anyway, bit of a pet subject of mine this, cos I have seen so many (and still do) C6ap cages around, before and asfter shuts, some bend horribly in a minor mishap, becuase they are frankly not up to the job....I guess many have them beacuse they think if they are sold by a compnay they must be good, if they see lots of them around - they must be good, if it costs several hundread pounds - it must be good,

...........no to all of the above, good is a cage that covers the notes above.....

Nige

[northernchris]

Eerrr didnt i just say that but not in so many words!!!! To me by the way this isnt a" pet subject "but a living for me and has been for the past decade in World Championship Motorsport.

Regards Chris

[Astro_Al]

Great post H_from_H. Thanks for taking the time to write it all out!

...didnt i just say that but not in so many words!!!!

Er, no? Look at how much data and useful info he wrote, then look back at your reply...

Al.

[northernchris]

Great post H_from_H. Thanks for taking the time to write it all out!

Er, no? Look at how much data and useful info he wrote, then look back at your reply...

Al.

And your point is?????????

[jules]

Any well made good quality cage will keep you safe all you need to do is not turn it into a tumble dry impresion.

That is basicly what I said

unless good quality means somthing else