07 awesome offroad

[alantd]

I took my father-in-law out on Boxing Day for some local greenlaning in my new TDCi.

What can I say! Absolutely amazing.

I'd not run those routes before (near Princes Risborough) but thought we'd give them a go (I think a few bravado-whiskeys the night before had been involved in the decision). The constant rain over the preceeding days had really turned it to cakey mud and softened the ground.

We were running standard road tyres (General Grabbers) on the 110 XS. To be honest, if we'd known what we were going to encounter I think we would have thought twice about continuing but ignorance carried us on. We were running at full axle articulation in places, evil angles and really deep, boggy mud. Still, low ratio 2nd with that anti-stall is truely incredible. The TC works a treat as well (didn't have that on my old 90 and it makes a huge difference).

Could have done with better mud tyres in places but it squirmed and pulled its way through. I think I need to get some diff guards though - the soft ground meant we were OK but it was mighty close in places. I have to say the 110 feels a lot more planted than my 90 ever did but I managed to completely fill the tow pintel with mud.

My conclusion, though is that the engine has so much pull , the first two gears are so low and it has such an efficient anti-stall that its almost like driving an auto. Amazing off road.

When we finally got home, my wife took one look at the brand new Landy now covered in mud and grinned. She won't let me wash the outside - says it looks like a propper Landy now

[gruntus]

Hi Alan,

If you are going to do this regularly it wouldn't hurt to note the following:

1) Carry a pair of wellies in the vehicle at all times.

2) Carry a spade/shovel (even an entrenching tool would do) to help you get out of any ruts.

3) A rubber mat that you can kneel on when using both of the above.

The above can get you out of a few situations as you will get stuck at some point.

With ruts and the like you can dig an escape route out and also pack rocks, branches, etc under the wheels to help give you that extra traction to get out. You can also use a couple of old rubber mats (pennies from the scrappies) to lay on the above to give you that edge needed.

Hope this helps as you may at some point get that gut churning feeling when stuck in a field with only your mobile phone for company (and no signal) that you could have been better prepared!

Cheers

G

[Will F]

...an don't forget the brolly, ol' fruit.

Sorry - just taking the tiddle. We do things a little different in Aafreeka B)

rgrds,

Will F

[Happyoldgit]

...an don't forget the brolly, ol' fruit.

Sorry - just taking the tiddle. We do things a little different in Aafreeka B)

rgrds,

Will F

You use the brolly to keep the sun off instead?

[alantd]

Hi Alan,

If you are going to do this regularly it wouldn't hurt to note the following:

1) Carry a pair of wellies in the vehicle at all times.

2) Carry a spade/shovel (even an entrenching tool would do) to help you get out of any ruts.

3) A rubber mat that you can kneel on when using both of the above.

The above can get you out of a few situations as you will get stuck at some point.

With ruts and the like you can dig an escape route out and also pack rocks, branches, etc under the wheels to help give you that extra traction to get out. You can also use a couple of old rubber mats (pennies from the scrappies) to lay on the above to give you that edge needed.

Hope this helps as you may at some point get that gut churning feeling when stuck in a field with only your mobile phone for company (and no signal) that you could have been better prepared!

Cheers

G

Good tips!

I actually had all of the above with me but there were some gut-wrenching moments to be sure. The worst was within 10 yards of the road - up a muddy slope. The tyres were completely caked and were just spinning away. A higher gear and a bit more care got us up and out. I had to drive on the verge for half a mile before I'd cleared enough mud from the wheels to go back on the road.

Definitely will be doing more.

[JST]

the anti stall i think is a great off road asset.

You will now just have to get used to driving with TC! it requires a slightly different approach as you you no doubt just found out!

[Jonny69]

Hi, I have a CSW (07, 90) with no Traction control. I am interested in the difference between a TC and non TC vehicle Off-road? I thought they behaved the same. Cheers. Jonathan

[JST]

in simple terms - with one you accelerate when you loose traction in the other you back off and find another route/different gear/lore/less momentum etc.

[GBMUD]

Traction control can only do it's thing when you give it plenty of power to do it with. Too much power without and you just break traction.

Chris

[Jonny69]

in simple terms - with one you accelerate when you loose traction in the other you back off and find another route/different gear/lore/less momentum etc.

Hi, I understand the different ways TC works. However I do not know what actually occurs on a Defender with TC. Does it brake the spinning wheel (To get a diff lock effect of driving the wheel with traction or weight on it). Or does it use suspension and diff sensors to apply drive/brake to specific wheels, or possibly Diff locks though I am sure I have never heard of a standard defender with diff locks? I am interested if I should have bought one with TC and would it have been better off road? Thanks. Jonathan

[white90]

it utilises the brakes to slow the spinning wheel then the power is put back to the wheel with traction through an open diff.

and if you are going to use yours off road seriously

then you may want manual diff locks any way.

IMHO your better off with less to go wrong

[JST]

Hi, I understand the different ways TC works. However I do not know what actually occurs on a Defender with TC. Does it brake the spinning wheel (To get a diff lock effect of driving the wheel with traction or weight on it). Or does it use suspension and diff sensors to apply drive/brake to specific wheels, or possibly Diff locks though I am sure I have never heard of a standard defender with diff locks? I am interested if I should have bought one with TC and would it have been better off road? Thanks. Jonathan

as Tony says above or put another way:

an open diff allows the power to take the easiest option. so consider the front axle in isolation.

Power from prop goes to both front wheels as required and is distributed through the open diff as needed for cornering etc, assuming both tyres have equal traction then no problem.

if one tyre looses traction - say front left, then that side/wheel becomes the path of least resistance for the power to take.

therefore all the drive to that axle goes out the front left wheel

what TC does in this example of the front axle is monitor the speed differences between the two front wheels. (in actual fact it does it on all four wheels simultaneously) ideally it want to keep both wheels rotating at the same speed. it cant add power to do this, so it cant speed up a wheel, but it can use the brakes and hence slow down a wheel.

TC would therefore brake the front left wheel (normally cadence brakes it) trying to slow it down to make it rotate at the same speed as the front right (currently 0mph). If front left was say doing 5mph it would try to slow it down to allow both wheel to rotate at 2.5mph. good in theory doesnt really work like that because as it brakes the left wheel the limited power there isint really sufficient to turn the front right wheel at 2.5mph and its a sort of half hearted attempt as you keep loosing power between the cadence periods (ie the not braked times) of the left wheel.

if you accelerate to say 15mph with front left still spinning and 0mph now on front right the TC will now start to work with faster cadence braking (upto 10x a second) on the left wheel with increased braking pressure. this brakes it hard and now this wheel isint the least path of resistance and the power goes right at the open diff to turn the right wheel that does have traction. that i believe is also why you see wheels rotating inch by inch when they are in the air as the TC brakes that wheel to redistribute the power. note it still hasn't got both wheels to rotate at the same speed but the differentiation between the wheels speeds are much lower compared to a spinning/stationary wheel.

thats my understanding anyway, so therefore with TC you need to increase the engine revs when you start to loose traction to rotate the spinning wheel quicker, plus the fact that you have power losses in the above system - heat through braking etc.

TC does need a speed differentiation though to work, so therefore increasing the revs when all four wheels are spinning at the same speed wont do anything as you have 100% loss of traction. time to draw the line and find another route etc.

you can to some extent use your own form of TC with left foot braking whilst accelerating but remember you can only (typically) brake all 4 wheels at once not wheels in isolation so it wont work as well and takes some practice.

All TC does is allow the power in the vehicle to be retransmitted to wheels that do have traction.

Please note this is my understanding of it and speeds above are examples, in reality work off engine revs not mph.

[JST]

So food for thought.

does TC work better across the axles when you have an open or closed centre diff. By better i mean respond quicker?

Open centre diff = loss of power possible through one wheel therefore that one wheel spins quicker.

Closed diff = 1/2 that same power loss therefore spins slower therefore TC doenst work as well.

or with the closed diff does it not spin that wheel........

[Jonny69]

Thanks fo your responses White90 and JST. I have got it now. So a pair of diff locks (or just rear) is better than the TC off road anyway. So money wise you are probably better off with diff locks instead of LR fitting traction control to the Vehicle. Again thanks for your responses. Jonathan

[JST]

So a pair of diff locks (or just rear) is better than the TC off road anyway.

i didnt say that as i dont know how much TC is on a new one. diff locks are a good aftermarket addition if you so alot off off roading.

In fact i would argue a TC equipped vehicle with a locking rear and centre diff is also pretty much up there.

TC is reactive, diff locks (as in those that fully lock) are preventative ie you put them before you get into trouble, if your talking a full locker such as ARB.

[Guest WALFY]

If you order a new 90/110 without ETC as standard it's listed at 1330 quid. So a pair of ARB's isn't far from that. But you have to remember to put them in

[alantd]

Thanks fo your responses White90 and JST. I have got it now. So a pair of diff locks (or just rear) is better than the TC off road anyway. So money wise you are probably better off with diff locks instead of LR fitting traction control to the Vehicle. Again thanks for your responses. Jonathan

JST is spot on in the way the TC works.

As raised above: although TC would trigger with less throttle applied with an open centre-diff, the aim, of course, is not to trigger TC but to keep the vehicle moving so you'll always be better off in low traction situations with the centre-diff locked.

As far as retro-fitting TC, I spoke to a dealer about doing it to my previous 90 and he suggested that it would be cheaper to fit aftermarket locking diffs. I don't honestly know which would be more effective in the real world; I guess it would be a trade off between the theoretical mechanical advantage of the pre-emptive locked diff over the reactive TC and the fact that you have to have had the foresight to lock the diffs - TC is always there. I guess there is a similar debate about viscous couplings vs locking diffs.

Anyway - upshot: get a locking rear diff and you won't need TC.

[ThreePointFive]

I could be completely misunderstanding this but curiosity has got the better of me as I have no experience with either TC or locking diffs off road.

Would TC ever try to act on an axle with a locked diff? If both wheels are turning the same speed (as they would if I understand how a locking diff works) then surely it can't detect either wheel loosing traction as they're both spinning the same speed whether they have traction or not?

[JST]

I could be completely misunderstanding this but curiosity has got the better of me as I have no experience with either TC or locking diffs off road.

Would TC ever try to act on an axle with a locked diff? If both wheels are turning the same speed (as they would if I understand how a locking diff works) then surely it can't detect either wheel loosing traction as they're both spinning the same speed whether they have traction or not?

Yes - if one wheel was spinning faster than the other three it would brake the other three. two of those three may be joined via a locked diff.

TC takes comparisions of all 4 wheel speeds.

if you had two locking axle diffs and the middle diff locked then it would be redundant.

[ThreePointFive]

Yes - if one wheel was spinning faster than the other three it would brake the other three. two of those three may be joined via a locked diff.

TC takes comparisions of all 4 wheel speeds.

if you had two locking axle diffs and the middle diff locked then it would be redundant.

I meant on a vehicle with axle lockers on both, but you answered that question anyway.

Cheers

[disco tony]

I could be completely misunderstanding this but curiosity has got the better of me as I have no experience with either TC or locking diffs off road.

Would TC ever try to act on an axle with a locked diff? If both wheels are turning the same speed (as they would if I understand how a locking diff works) then surely it can't detect either wheel loosing traction as they're both spinning the same speed whether they have traction or not?

Important not to forget that standard diff lock, (centre), does NOT lock all 4 wheels, so one at the front and one at the back can still spin with diff loxk engaged, thats why people upgrade to arb diff locks and the like. Hope I'm not teaching you to suck eggs.

[BogMonster]

Yes - if one wheel was spinning faster than the other three it would brake the other three. two of those three may be joined via a locked diff.

TC takes comparisions of all 4 wheel speeds.

if you had two locking axle diffs and the middle diff locked then it would be redundant.

Er - no

If one wheel is spinning faster than the other three it will brake the spinning wheel not the ones that aren't...

If by some odd set of circumstances, three wheels (one front and both locked rears) were spinning, and the one remaining front wheel was on hard ground and was the only wheel not spinning, then it would brake the other three, but I'd say that was probably clutching at straws by that stage

[JST]

Er - no

If one wheel is spinning faster than the other three it will brake the spinning wheel not the ones that aren't...

If by some odd set of circumstances, three wheels (one front and both locked rears) were spinning, and the one remaining front wheel was on hard ground and was the only wheel not spinning, then it would brake the other three, but I'd say that was probably clutching at straws by that stage

Oops - sorry Bm your right wrong way round