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Td5 still won't start


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I broke down on Monday morning and the car will still not go. 2004 Td5 110

It all went like this:

I was out and about on Salisbury Plain on Sunday and the car was running fine. I went home and parked up as usual on the drive. Monday morning I started the car to take the sandbag to work and it ran very badly for a second or two - sounding like it was on 3 cylinders - and then settled down and ran normally.

I set off on the 36 mile drive to Salisbury and all was well for the first .25 mile or so until we got out of the 30 mph limit. Then a misfire became apparent, getting worse at higher revs and then worse again as the engine became warmer. Suspecting dodgy diesel I stopped at the first garage, about 15 miles into the journey, and filled up with fresh diesel. As I was filling I started wondering about oil in the injector loom. It is not supposed to happen on later Td5s though.

Anyway, while sandbag paid for the diesel I took a look under the seat and lo, there was oil present at the red ECU plug under the seat. Not having anything to clean it with I wiped it with a paper towel from the garage and replaced it. Then the damned thing would not start. :( Some fiddleing with the ECU plugs later and it did restart and ran just as badly, getting steadily worse all the way to Salisbury. After dropping sandbag off at work I made it to Halfrauds where I bought some electrical contact cleaner spray and gave it all a good sluicing out - inside and outside of the red plug and the ECU connector. Then the car would not restart, despite considerable plug fiddling.

I called the RAC who spun me a load of lies and finally collected me over 5 hours later.

So, this morning I went and bought a new injector harness, degreased everything again and fitted the new wiring harness. I eagerly reconnected the ECU, then the battery and jumped in and turned the key. Now the motor just cranks and cranks without startting. It seems like it might be firing on one cylinder but not starting - there is some smoke at the exhaust - as best I can tell on this breezy day.

Anyway, the current best thinking (my own!) is that the fuel pump is failing. The tank is nearly full of diesel so I guess that the pump is immersed - should I be able to hear it? I am pretty sure I can usually here it running when the engine is not running but as usual in these circumstances I am unsure.

Assuming that one cannot hear the pump running usually, how is best to check that it is running? Is there an easily removed pipe that can be observed from the key turning position? How fast should it pump fuel? Which relay/fuse should I be looking for?

Any other suggestions?

Damned thing. :(

Chris

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Bugger that... Toymota?! I'd rather 'ave a series! Get shot of the TD5 and get yerself a nice Tdi, you can run it on veg oil then and there's some real bargains about :D

Err... sorry... not much more of an idea than the previous poster I suppose.

Does the TD5 have a similar fuel filter arrangement to a Tdi ? If so, take the feed line from the in tank pump to the fuel filter off and see if you get fuel through as you crank it (obviously taking care not to ingest, inhale, inject yourself with or imerse yourself in any diesel while you do it) that should at least tell you whether or how well the pump is working and might be able to rule that out.

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Bugger that... Toymota?! I'd rather 'ave a series! Get shot of the TD5 and get yerself a nice Tdi, you can run it on veg oil then and there's some real bargains about :D

Err... sorry... not much more of an idea than the previous poster I suppose.

Does the TD5 have a similar fuel filter arrangement to a Tdi ? If so, take the feed line from the in tank pump to the fuel filter off and see if you get fuel through as you crank it (obviously taking care not to ingest, inhale, inject yourself with or imerse yourself in any diesel while you do it) that should at least tell you whether or how well the pump is working and might be able to rule that out.

Fuel filter is in the rear wheelarch. :(

Chris

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Right, I have managed to test the fuel pump - thanks to JST - and there is nothing, not so much as a drop of fuel there. I have looked at and checked fuses and relays but before I begin the massive and daunting task of getting to the fuel pump, can anyone confirm which (if any) of these fuses/relays is fuel pump related?

post-209-1199283455_thumb.jpg

I am assuming that it is one or more of these. :)

Thanks

Chris

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When you switch the ignition on but don't start the engine, you should hear the fuel pump run for about 30 sec then stop. If you can't hear at least a slight hum with your head down under the fuel tank, then either it or the power feed is deaded. My guess is the pump - they aren't that reliable.

The absolute test is to take out the fuel temp sensor from the back of the fuel rail and plumb in a suitable pressure gauge adaptor in its place - you must have 58psi there or there is something wrong.

By the way the official version about oil not migrating in the loom on later vehicles is bllx - it happens to all of them. Just to cheer you up :)

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When you switch the ignition on you should hear the fuel pump run for about 30 sec then stop. If you can't hear at least a slight hum with your head down under the fuel tank, then either it or the power feed is deaded. My guess is the pump - they aren't that reliable.

The absolute test is to take out the fuel temp sensor from the back of the fuel rail and plumb in a suitable pressure gauge adaptor in its place - you must have 58psi there or there is something wrong.

By the way the official version about oil not migrating in the loom on later vehicles is bllx - it happens to all of them. Just to cheer you up :)

Talking to JST, mine has been noisy for some time. I have been able to hear it with the engine off, even when it is submerged under a full tank. Once the level gets low (fuel light on) and there is not enough fuel to submerge the pump it was audible above the engine noise when stationary/going slowly - and that is with the full Storedraw in place too. It looks rather like I will have to bite the bullet. :( Once I got the engine to restart after filling with diesel it did seem marginally better for a while - I guess that the pump was having to do less work. It soon deteriorated.

Before I order another, I want to double check that there is a live feed to the pump. This means getting access to the top of the tank. Rather than remove the Southdown tank guard, drain the (now almost full) tank and remove the tank, I thought I might remove the Storedraw and go in through the boot floor. Any top tips for location/size of the hole I need? What is the tool of choice? Drilling and jigsawing seems likely to result in a new fuel tank being needed too, is an angle grinder likely to be best?

Thanks for the advice on the loom. I feel a little peeved now having done the job when it was likely not the cause of the problem. However, there was oil there so I guess it needed doing. I took advice posted by Jim Attril and destroyed the mulitiplug seal to prevent pressure building up and to allow oil to drain from the loom. At least there is one job I hope not to revisit. :)

Cheers

Chris

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Yep, a noisy pump is usually on the way out (early warning) and when it goes quiet it is usually terminal :(

I will try and remember to check at work this afternoon and see if we have measurements for the hole in the floor - quite why LR didn't make a hatch in the floor (the Discovery Td5 has one) is beyond me... but you're right, it is easier than draining the tank and dropping it out, and if you do that you also have to be very careful not to break the (plastic!) quick release hose fittings - dangling a tank in midair and trying to undo stupid not-so-quick-release couplings jammed up above it is not the easiest job, judging by the language that comes from down in the pit at work when somebody has to do one :)

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Guest diesel_jim

I did have the measurements somewhere drawn onto a 110 rear body, but for the life of me can't remember where i saved it!

i can measure offf of the 110 chassis i've gout outside? the Td5 tank is in place, so i can measure from the rear crossmember inwards and a side measurment if thats any good Chris?

you're more than welcome to borrow my pump also if it helps, literally a 30second job to remove for me here.

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Guest diesel_jim

Just went out and measured it:

post-130-1199309881_thumb.jpg

measured from the rear of the rear crossmember.(the 55cm dimension)

the smaller side measurement is from the LH side of the LH chassis rail.(32cm)

the larger one (68.5cm) is level with the LH end of the rear crossmember.

all dims to the center of the pump

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Just the job Jamie, thanks! :) I can even see where to be specially careful to miss the fuel pipes too.

I will cut an inspection hatch tomorrow and check that there is power arriving at the pump. Assuming that there is I will buy a new one on the assumption that that will sort it. I cannot see any real benefit in trying yours but thanks for the offer. :)

Cheers

Chris

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Yep, damned cars. :(

James, I have emptied the 100l water butt that was on top of the store draw and removed the store draw. I have just come in to take measurements from Jamie's picture and then I will go start grinding. All OK so far? :P

Chris

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Plenty of 'letric at the wires but not at the pump.

The hole in the floor managed to go right through both a longitudinal and transverse body support beam. I had to buy a reciprocating air saw to get in there and cut through them.

I covered the hole with some Correx held in place with silicone. That is a structural repair method, right? :P The Storedraw is on the top anyway so it is not an issue till I sell it.

I was planning to make a tech article about it but became so frustrated and engrossed in getting the damned thing done I clean forgot to take any pictures. D'OH!

Anyway, job done now. It started and runs fine now that the bubbles are out of the system. :) I will treat it to a wash one day soon.

Chris

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  • 13 years later...

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