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300Tdi Noise


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My 110 started making a light 'chuffing' noise this morning on the way into work. No loss of power.

I noticed it after exiting the M4. It sounds like a strip of plastic is flapping against the fan blades, but I've got an electric fan.

Rises and falls with engine revs.

I opened the bonnet and it SEEMS to be coming from the rear of the engine as it's lounder nearer that end. Air intake area. Hmmmm?

Looked on here and Jim Attrill made a comment somewhere on his ages ago. Valve stem seals apparently.

What's your opinions? Head off? She's due a service very soon, so it looks like it'll be even sooner than that...

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Guest diesel_jim

check the exhaust manifold isn't leaking. just get a socket and gently nip up the bolts, although it could have blown the gasket away and so you'll need to replace it.

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I agree with Jim - probably exhaust manifold gasket blowing at the back (you may be able to see a sooty deposit where the leak is). If no luck with that - put your hand down the back of the head while the engine is running - where the head gasket joint is, and feel for compression loss towards the bulkhead. I think you have the 200TDi engine? I have repaired a few where there has been head gasket blow from No4 vylinder towards the bulkhead.

Les.

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When mine made a chuffing noise I eventually found out that a valve stem cap had broken, becoming a ring as the top had gone. This takes your clearances from .2 mm to about .95 and accounts for the noise. I changed one and then all eight of them as there was a batch that weren't made properly so the others will fail.

Dunno where the bits went - into the sump and out with the next oil change I reckon.

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Sorry - me not paying attention :(

If it's the exhaust gasket, then the turbo assembly can just about be moved far enough away from the head to be able to replace the gasket.

If it's the head gasket, then the usual amount of work to replace it - 3-4 hrs without a skim.

Valve cap can be replaced by removing the rocker cover, opening up the tappet gap as far as it will go - which will give you enough room to work in, then re-set the tappet gap.

Thread I did in the archive that will give you the info you require-

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=8179

Les.

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I've just been outside to have a look.

Engine on and revved her gently. Nothing seeming to come from the exhaust side. Actually a bit quieter there.

Inlet-side and noisier. DEFINITELY coming from the rear inlet-side of the engine.

Couldn't see soot on the inlet, but the engine block is dirty. Not muddy; just what you'd expect to find on a 125,000 mile block. Admittedly, it is oilier that side, especially at the rear, but nothing that's changed since the last time I looked.

The head looks OK too. Dry and, seemingly, leak free. Oil filler is clean.

I SUSPECT the inlet gasket???

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hi ;

fisrtly check the injectors for leaking seals, get some soapy water and squirt it down the injectors so it reaches down into the holes the injectors or located into .

with engine running check for any air bubbles coming up from injectors .

you may need to keep squirting soapy water onto the injectors whilst engine is idling , in order to make sure enough water gets down into the bottom of the injector bores .

if you get no drastic amounts of bubbles come up then all is well there .

a leaking injector seal can make the noise you mentioned .

can you take centre cubby/seat gearbox inspection plate off and drive with it off and listen to exhaust note in the pipe, do you hear a ticking noise in exhaust when its trying to rev high ,especially in 3rd gear .

have you lost ability to rev engine up high and does it almost feel like its running on 3 cylinders when on motorway and pulling hard , if so its the head gasket gone behind number 4 cylinder most likely

check the inlet/exhaust gasket on number 1 and 4 cylinders , these end up with splits top and bottom of ports on the gaskets , but mainly on the inlet side which causes a leak from manifold when under turbo boost and can make the fuel mixture become over rich with diesel , exhaust gasket can also split which will give you chuff chuff noises at sort of half sound of engine speed .

to get to this gasket you first remove the inlet manifold by taking out the 10mm headed bolts just underneath the top part of manifold and then loosen off the 13mm nuts on the lower studs.

the top bolts need to be witdrawn but the right hand one may have a tag in its way but you dont need to pull that bolt right out .

the bottom bolt mountings are in a u shape so the manifold will slip over the studs from being dropped in from above them .

once inlet manifold is lifted out you then need a 15mm hexagon socket to remove the exhaust manifold nuts , the studs might come out with them also, if they do then you can remove the nuts by holding stud in a vice between a couple of bits of aluminium and then put the studs back in the manifold and lock them in place with loctite 242 .

you dont need to remove the exhaust pipe because the manifold can be pulled away from head with pipe attached .

if you fit a new inlet/exhaust gasket remember they are fitted round a particular way , so that the exhaust side is showing the metal side of the gasket .

genuine landrover inlet gaskets are like this but aftermarket may be useable both ways round, you need to check though .

put some hylomar or similar gasket sealer around the inlet port holes on both sides of gasket.

place gasket onto cylinder head over studs first and then install exhaust manifold and bolt down and then inlet manifold and bolt down .

i think the 300tdi head gasket fails on cylinder number 4 in most cases , it will fail on the part of gasket right next to the exhuast valve and will allways blow on the cylinder head side not the block side .

the reason for this is due to the chamber cutout in the head and the fact the exhuast side of this extends out into the sealing area of the headgasket , the gasket will leak just to the side of where the exhuast valve is and you can even see carbon deposited onto the sealing ring of the head gasket in this area ..

i have just replaced my headgasket on a 300tdi and found the cause , wich i am sure is the same for every 300tdi .

you are best to use LVB500220 GENUINE LANDROVER [updated ]head gasket if you replace it , this is a laminated steel [3 hole ] gasket and superior to the composite types .

the head gasket needs to be fitted the correct way up, which is denoted TOP on the gasket by the 3HOLES marking .

3 HOLE denotes its a 3 hole gasket , this is the most commonly used head gasket on 300tdis and the one used currently by landrover as a replacement head gasket.

i was told that the 3 hole gasket is practically the only used head gasket now .

in effect you are supposed to measure the piston deck height above the block to determine which head gasket [amount of HOLES] to use , but in general people only fit 3 hole gaskets if they replace them now.

the 1 and 2 hole gaskets arent generally available now as most gasket sets come with the 3 hole head gasket included .

you will be ok using an ELRING head gasket, this is a composite gasket , but again make sure you fit it with the TOP marking showing towards the top

a genuine landrover LVB500220 head gasket plus an inlet gasket wil cost you £35 inc vat from landrover main dealer .

ELRING 3 hole head gasket plus inlet gasket will cost £20 inc vat approx from www.paddockspares.com

if you do need to replace head gasket you will also need a new set of head bolts, but these arent expensive if you buy aftermarket allmakes or bearmach ones .

you dont need to remove thermostat housing to remove the head & only need to take off rubber hoses from it , take off the heater plug wires and leave heater plugs in place - take out injectors [will need a 14mm slide hammer type puller for these though -rocker shaft and rockers in one- undo inlet and remove along with heater pipe- pull exhaust manifold away from head .

will need to take off the air filter box to access 2 head bolts .

make sure you disconnect battery positive terminal first , just in case exhaust manifold & pipe touches starter terminal .

when doing up head bolts you nip them all down just so they touch the head and then torque them to 40nm in correct sequence , then you tighten them by torquing them all round 60 degs and then again another 60degs .

then you torque the 140mm x12mm headbolts by another 20degs each , these are the bolts that form a square equally around the bores .

ie there are 6 headbolts surrounding the cylinder and 4 of them surround the bore on opposing corners , the other 2 are located outboard on edge of head .

it does get quite an effort to final torque the headbolts , so you need a long 1/2" knuckle bar for this .

easiest way to get the 60degs worked out is to make a disc that will slip over a 1/2" short extension and will sit on top of a long reach 19mm hex impact socket , mark out 60degs using a protractor and put 2 lines on the dics 60 degs apart.

use the line through the axle as a guide to work from , then when turning bolts you set disc so it has the first line pointing east>west so to speak and then rotate bolt & disc until second line [60degs] reaches the "east>west" line .

number/ mark the 18 bolt heads with a yellow marker or french chalk so you can work easier and locate the right bolts to torque next in sequence .

dont forget that the last 20degs torque procedure is only for the m12x140 head bolts and not the outermost bolts around sides of head .

the smaller 10mm dia headbolts fit on the exhuast side of the head .

there are 2 locating dowels which need to be placed into the engine block , these may come out with the head when you lift it off and need to be removed with pliers and placed into the holes in the corner of the engine block , easy to see them .

the dowel holes in the head are deeper than the dowels so dont knock the dowels down into the head , the block holes are bored so that the dowels go down only so far and reach a shoulder , they then stick out about 5mm above block .

the valve top "caps " are only pushed on and will fall off easily, so remove them before handling the head .

pushrods just pull out and drop back in .

i would advise you to drain the cylinder block of water before removing head, there is a bung in side of lower part of the engine block just under the turbo area . .

othwerwise the block will stay full to top of water and it goes everywhere when you pull head off, including down the bores and over head gasket face .

other than that when you remove the head use a plastic pipe and syphon most of the water out of the block by putting the pipe down into one of the water jacket holes .

i found that the block water retention problem was the worst to clean up afterwards , so is best to drain off the block totally in the first place and then you wont get water down the bores and piston crowns nor in the bolt holes of the block or down into the camshaft and followers .

sorry if all this is ass about face at times, hope you get a decent picture of it .

easy enough job to do head gasket so long as you follow a few pointers closely .

.

My 110 started making a light 'chuffing' noise this morning on the way into work. No loss of power.

I noticed it after exiting the M4. It sounds like a strip of plastic is flapping against the fan blades, but I've got an electric fan.

Rises and falls with engine revs.

I opened the bonnet and it SEEMS to be coming from the rear of the engine as it's lounder nearer that end. Air intake area. Hmmmm?

Looked on here and Jim Attrill made a comment somewhere on his ages ago. Valve stem seals apparently.

What's your opinions? Head off? She's due a service very soon, so it looks like it'll be even sooner than that...

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Thanks chaps!! Excellent information!!

Right, I did a much more thorough check this morning and this is what I found:

BlownGasket.jpg

She's blowing just behind the thick black cable with the white plastic on it. Where the two blocks meet, you can see a brown metal step. You can also see it darkened where I sprayed brake cleaner. That's the spot where she's blowing.

So, please confirm this is the head gasket failing??? I want to be 100% sure.

Plan, so far, is thus:

Order a new Turner head with springs etc. I've chosen this route as I don't want to run the risk of finding the head needs skimmed etc. It MUST be done during the weekend, so replacing the head seems the most thorough way, plus I'll have a good secondhand head for sale afterwards.

I have a good friend (Twisty from LRA) who wiill spend next weekend helping me do the changeover.

I'm going to order new injectors and glow plugs as well as a complete bolt and gasket set.

We'll do a full oil and filter change whilst we're at it - she's due one anyway as it's almost 3,000 miles since the last one.

I have no choice but to drive my 110 as she is right now, but it's 'only' for 4 days and ~120 miles. I'll be keeping the revs as low as possible ~ no more than 2,500 rpm to avoid further damage.

OK so far?

I'll then have a complete 300Tdi head for sale if anyone wants it.

Can anyone please advise whether this is a good route to follow?

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While it's not advisable to drive a vehicle with a blowing head gasket - the short term might be ok, although it'll get worse as more of the gasket is blown away. I'd also be worried about something catching fire, the leak will be high temperature, and will get hotter as it's gets worse - the nearby wiring and sound insulating are mostly plastic. Other than that - I don't think there is going to be the likelihood of further damage to the head or block, but I would have to say don't drive it - if only to be on the safe side.

Les.

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Won't Turner take your old head in part exchange? - so long as it is not cracked which they can find out. But your plan sounds good, a Tdi head job is not difficult.

It is definitely worth while painting a mark on the head bolts when torquing them up. Then if you lose your place you can see which bolts have been turned and which not. I use an angle gauge, but just do it by eye, now.

If you have an air line you can blow the coolant out of the block channels, it's a bit messy though :)

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I have seen a 300Tdi which had been driven (probably for some time) with the HG blown between two cylinders. The exhaust gases blowing through had eaten away the alloy of the head and rendered the head completely scrap! I wouldn't drive it at all...

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Unfortunately, leaving the 110 at home isn't an option as I need her to get to work and back. It's a 20 minute drive and a 2 hour public-transport nightmare each way.

It's a 30 mile round trip, but she'll get a rest on Thursday.

If wifey uses her instead, the journey is shorter in distance but longer in time; most of which is spent in traffic.

Not to justify; more to demonstrate; a friend drove his 200Tdi for 3 weeks (unknowingly) like this. It's a scary thought nonetheless.

Points very much taken on-board, but I don't really have a choice. I'll see what can be done about protecting the rear of the engine bay and anything in the way.

I'd rather NOT drive her either.

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it will drive ok for a bit , just wont have as much go in it .

make sure you buy a genuine land rover LVB500220 head gasket though , i think you will be better off doing so .

your head gasket has gone same place as mine, ie at the weak point of the gasket sealing surfaces .

if you look at the gasket you remove you will see a black staining on the ring around the bore on the top of the headgasket ,which is about 50mm in length , right at the back of the gasket on number 4 on the drivers side of the rear of the head .

i bet all 300tdi blow in the same place .

the outer head bolts on drivers sides of head are too far away from the bore sealing ring of the gasket and the weak point is right next to the exhaust valve and chamber of the head .

in effect there are only 4 headbolts per cylinder that are working effectively , this is much like the old ford v6 essex engine, that too suffered blown head gaskets for a pastime and the only sure way to stop it was to get the block o-ringed or at a push try using rheinz headgaskets .

if only the valves were spaced slightly closer or the chamber was a couple mm less in length i think this problem would be averted . .

this is an all too common occurrence on 300tdis i think .

there will most likely be nothing wrong with youre head surface because when heads bend due to overheating they usually do it in the middle not at the ends and as im aware you havent overheated the engine have you ? ..

my 300tdi blew in exactly same place as yours and my head is straight .

i have all the proper toolmaking measuring gear youd ever need here .

check on ebay for cylinder heads, there is one there for £250 skimmed & pressure tested , just search for a guy calling himself RANGEROVERHEAVEN in calne wiltshire , he breaks discos and landrovers etc and is very quick to deliver , he knows what parts fit what etc .

.

also look at LEGS website for cylinder heads , they are in shropshire .

obviously also speak to TURNER ENGINEERING too .

you should be able to get your head skimmed locally for £70 but to be honest i bet there isnt anything wrong with it apart from head gasket failure .

if you just fit a new head gasket and inlet/exhaust gasket it will be rolling again .

it doesnt take long to do a head gasket change, its just what you have to do in between that determines the time it takes .

you could do a head gasket swap on a defender in a day without much trouble , will probably take about 4 hours of nothing crops up .

please remember to buy a 15mm hexagon deep 3/8" drive socket though for the exhaust manifold nuts , you will thank me for telling you , dont try using a spanner or youll round the heads off and will then be stuck ..

get a couple of scotchbrite pads, green or brown , to clean the head and block and exhaust manifold surfaces off with , and maybe some 320 grit wet and dry , youll need a scraper or two also, or perhaps some stanley blades at a push .

when you fill up with coolant after wards though it would be an idea to fill it up normally and then top it up finally from the highest heater hose on the heater matrix , so you dont get any airlock in the system .

cheers and all the best

ian

Unfortunately, leaving the 110 at home isn't an option as I need her to get to work and back. It's a 20 minute drive and a 2 hour public-transport nightmare each way.

It's a 30 mile round trip, but she'll get a rest on Thursday.

If wifey uses her instead, the journey is shorter in distance but longer in time; most of which is spent in traffic.

Not to justify; more to demonstrate; a friend drove his 200Tdi for 3 weeks (unknowingly) like this. It's a scary thought nonetheless.

Points very much taken on-board, but I don't really have a choice. I'll see what can be done about protecting the rear of the engine bay and anything in the way.

I'd rather NOT drive her either.

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I have seen a 300Tdi which had been driven (probably for some time) with the HG blown between two cylinders. The exhaust gases blowing through had eaten away the alloy of the head and rendered the head completely scrap! I wouldn't drive it at all...

Like this .....

300tdicylinderhead.jpg

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If you look at the joint between the head and the block, on the right hand side of the engine, almost hidden by the air filter. There is a tag sticking out from the head gasket. This will have a number of holes in it, or not. As previously mentioned, the most common is 3 hole, but there are 4 gaskets available from Land Rover with 0, 1, 2 or 3 holes. One of my trucks (fitted with a very early 300Tdi engine) has a 2 hole gasket. The thickness varies to accommodate the varying deck heights of the pistons.

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Never seen a 0 hole gasket. The manual doesn't mention that size. Are you sure this isn't some sort of urban legend?

It does exist, EPC says ERR7154 head gasket 1.60mm, doesn't state hole ident, as it does for the 1,2 & 3 hole head gaskets,& only list it for the 300Tdi engine.

in the engine overhaul section of the 300Tdi workshop manual/RAVE CD it shows all four gasket sizes. see below copied from the section mentioned above.

ENGINE OVERHAUL

6. From all of the readings obtained, determine

highest protrusion figure and select the

appropriate cylinder head gasket.

Protrusion 0.50 to 0.60 mm - select gasket with

1 identification hole.

Protrusion 0.61 to 0.70 mm - select gasket with

2 identification holes.

Protrusion 0.71 to 0.80 mm - select gasket with

3 identification holes.

Protrusion 0.81 to 0.90 mm - select gasket with

0 identification holes.

NOTE: Identification holes are located on

the edge of the gasket.

Edited by western
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Interesting. I also found that in the 300tdi overhaul manual. If you look in the Defender 300tdi manual under cylinder head replacement it says there are only 3 sizes: one, two and three hole gaskets. It is, of course, nothing unusual for LR to have two manuals that disagree.

I must say that I have never removed a cyl head that has a 0 hole gasket, and have seen all the other three. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist :D

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