Hybrid_From_Hell Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 (edited) Ah well, Today was the day to test out the various and many modifications to the 90s suspension, ....... For those who have followed any of this,........ its about 4 months work on and off, and gawd knows how much thought and practise,..... the rear top mounts are version 3, ....front ones version 2, ..........shocks, er ...........lets just say I have tried a few....... and I've done loads ie played around with bush modification, radius arms, Mounts, ......and even the suspension washers, .............loads of mods.... Trevs (LR90) Spring calculator was and is a brilliant program, as a result of weighing the 90, and using his program, I now have rear springs that SIT the same height as the old ones, but are 2.5 inches long and 55 lbs softer, transformed the handling both on and off road...and several pairs od as new springs "For sale" Brackets ?....what brackets you say ??.............like these (version 3) Now I know they work I'll have them passivated next week, .......about a day to design and make each !..... Suspension washers ?...eh ?...... Ah,, well these amout to about 3 days work,..... to make, .....drill........ lathe and polish off marks (3 days ???..................yep had to make a special tool to bend them to shape, ...............and this this is shape and tool no 4) .... B) BEFORE.............. AFTER................ Time will tell what the smaller surface area will do to them, but my little brain says "Should work", they DO let the axle flex a load more (31mm drop when just "hanging" axle with flat washer versus the "HFH Special KittyWashers " ..... Oh and chopping internal bodywork about to let it all in... So, all this work, and today was the day to test it.... I can honestly say I am chuffed, ............. ............no, it doesn't have the front axle flex that Nick (Rogue Vogues) has, .......nor did I expect it too, (and bl**dy nice work to Nick BTW), ...........but I was planning to see just what I could get out of it all without using 3 Link, .................and I am happy that it does Flex a load more, ..............probably more than I planned, .......................... Even when went out earlier today with matey who took the pics I thought, ......yeah, .......it won't look this impressive in a photo....they are not bad tho ! So, pics ?.................... Rear Axle does fit in arch Front does move nicely now, this was the biggest cross axle we could find ! : On close inspection, ........there was still more movement there : Another lump and last shots for the day : Lastly thanks to many I used as sounding boards, or those I bored, or borrowed bits / ideas / tea coffee cake or anything else...Paul W, Nick, Jon W, Trev 90 (bl**dy Great spring calculator), Tonk (yep, even leafers helped) anyone else I have forgotten ...and SWMBO for letting me drone on about ideas non stop to anyone who popped around Dec 4th (DRD) HBRO will give me the chance to really test it out !....few more tweaks to come but about there... BTW Gon2Fars Relocation axle fitted cones are the Dogs Dodahs, well worth the money, well made, and frankly I bought them as I couldn't be bothered to make them for what they charge........buy them ! Well, what do yer all think ...........for a non 3 linked 90 then that is ? Nige Edited November 19, 2005 by Hybrid_From_Hell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibexman Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Ah well,Today was the day to test out the various and many modifications to the 90s suspension, ....... For those who have followed any of this,........ its about 4 months work on and off, and gawd knows how much thought and practise,..... the rear top mounts are version 3, ....front ones version 2, ..........shocks, er ...........lets just say I have tried a few....... and I've done loads ie played around with bush modification, radius arms, Mounts, ......and even the suspension washers, .............loads of mods.... Trevs (LR90) Spring calculator was and is a brilliant program, as a result of weighing the 90, and using his program, I now have rear springs that SIT the same height as the old ones, but are 2.5 inches long and 55 lbs softer, transformed the handling both on and off road...and several pairs od as new springs "For sale" Brackets ?....what brackets you say ??.............like these (version 3) Now I know they work I'll have them passivated next week, .......about a day to design and make each !..... Are you goin into prodution then Nige????? Suspension washers ?...eh ?...... Ah,, well these amout to about 3 days work,..... to make, .....drill........ lathe and polish off marks (3 days ???..................yep had to make a special tool to bend them to shape, ...............and this this is shape and tool no 4) .... B) BEFORE.............. AFTER................ Time will tell what the smaller surface area will do to them, but my little brain says "Should work", they DO let the axle flex a load more (31mm drop when just "hanging" axle with flat washer versus the "HFH Special KittyWashers " ..... Oh and chopping internal bodywork about to let it all in... So, all this work, and today was the day to test it.... I can honestly say I am chuffed, ............. ............no, it doesn't have the front axle flex that Nick (Rogue Vogues) has, .......nor did I expect it too, (and bl**dy nice work to Nick BTW), ...........but I was planning to see just what I could get out of it all without using 3 Link, .................and I am happy that it does Flex a load more, ..............probably more than I planned, .......................... Even when went out earlier today with matey who took the pics I thought, ......yeah, .......it won't look this impressive in a photo....they are not bad tho ! So, pics ?.................... Rear Axle does fit in arch Front does move nicely now, this was the biggest cross axle we could find ! : On close inspection, ........there was still more movement there : Another lump and last shots for the day : Lastly thanks to many I used as sounding boards, or those I bored, or borrowed bits / ideas / tea coffee cake or anything else...Paul W, Nick, Jon W, Trev 90 (bl**dy Great spring calculator) anyone else I have forgotten ...and SWMBO for letting me drone on about ideas non stop to anyone who popped around Dec 4th (DRD) HBRO will give me the chance to really test it out !....few more tweaks to come but about there... BTW Gon2Fars Relocation axle fitted cones are the Dogs Dodahs, well worth the money, well made, and frankly I bought them as I couldn't be bothered to make them for what they charge........buy them ! Well, what do yer all think ...........for a non 3 linked 90 then that is ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Looks very nice. You've done well, just shows what can be done with essentially stock suspension with a bit of thought and careful tuning. Did you manage to get the fronts to dislocate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Impressive Nige. B) The concave/convex washers, they are on both sides of the bushing? With the smaller contact area, has it changed the way the landy feels when you drive it? I see that your using blue poly bushes, they were recommended to me also. Are you happy with them or should I consider going to the harder ones? "frankly I bought them as I couldn't be bothered to make them for what they charge........buy them !" Ops, I don't listen too well Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Very, Very nice indeed, I've been reading your posts on the progression of all this and i've really enjoyed them. Looks very impressive, take it you're glad all the hard work has paid off? Luke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 I have a complaint - Nige hasn't done anything hilariously stupid during all this work usually by now he'd have either endangered himself or a household pet in a suitably slapstick carry-on kind of fashion. Standards are slipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted November 19, 2005 Author Share Posted November 19, 2005 Looks very nice. You've done well, just shows what can be done with essentially stock suspension with a bit of thought and careful tuning.Did you manage to get the fronts to dislocate? Nope, Not sure id it was the fact we didn't find a big / steep enough cross axle, or the srpings being too stiff still, I am thinking about dropping poundages on the front sligthly.............. But, I have a few further tweaks for the front which will be done prior to 4th dec, so will test and work out then if I change (yet a F again) more springs. So chuffed I am 90% theu a bottle of shiraz, and am looking at the next one already Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Nope,Not sure id it was the fact we didn't find a big / steep enough cross axle, or the srpings being too stiff still, I am thinking about dropping poundages on the front sligthly.............. But, I have a few further tweaks for the front which will be done prior to 4th dec, so will test and work out then if I change (yet a F again) more springs. So chuffed I am 90% theu a bottle of shiraz, and am looking at the next one already Nige Chuffed! I bet you are Mine don't dislocate at the fornt X-axled either and its riding higher to start with. Softer springs might be a way fwd to help compensate for the limits in flexibility of the stock front suspension. You will get to the point where the hockey sticks start binding in the brackets and even with no bushes at all its still not going to articulate any further. Are you running narrow or wide bushes at the front? Narrow is good and drilling or slotted bushes helps a lot. Must admit mine feels better both on and off road with the balanced springs but the softer you go the scarier side sloopes become, (this is what makes controlled air springs so good). You should be fine with what you now have but have you tried it on a good side slope? Enjoy the wine. We're on a bottle of rose Chris picked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Well done Nige, I'm glad all of the effort has paid off. So what height have you ended up with on the 90 in the end? Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted November 19, 2005 Author Share Posted November 19, 2005 (edited) Tuko, In simple terms Anything that twists I fitted blues, and anything I want to stay firm I fitted reds, cept I also modified the blues as well Washers are fitted both sides of bushes front and rear, ........will see if I can do photos of the Kittywashers Nige Edited November 19, 2005 by Hybrid_From_Hell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Kittywashers ™ Kittywasher... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Is that what you had to use together with lemon washing up liquid, to repair the cat after you had that "little accident" with 20 litres of Waxoyl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 the upward movement you've gained is a real bonus, I've stuck some shots up to compare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 "Kittywashers ™" Nige, When are they going into production ? I want the first set! B) Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 And for comparison here are some of mine taken last Christmas with completely std suspension: Not quite "hanging wheels" but definitely "no weight on them at the time" Note the lovely straight KittyGripper on the roof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Note the lovely straight KittyGripper™ on the roof Shouldn't that read "Note the lovely straight un(ab)used KittyGripper™ on the roof "???????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted November 20, 2005 Author Share Posted November 20, 2005 (edited) Impressive Nige. B) The concave/convex washers, they are on both sides of the bushing? With the smaller contact area, has it changed the way the landy feels when you drive it? I see that your using blue poly bushes, they were recommended to me also. Are you happy with them or should I consider going to the harder ones? Todd. Thanks Todd ! Basically I thought through bushes, coming up with the logic that the harder the bush the more it will stay put, ie watch a RR with knackered suspension off road - so much more flexible than one with new bushes !...so, thats why I used Blues, I have also modified some of them on one side to see what the effcet is long term vs Flex...time will tell. Blues are softer than genuine, and red are slightly harder then genuines, so I use Blues on everything I WANT to move, and red on things I DO NOT want to move (ie rear radius arm to axle, A Frame to Chassis etc... On the road it basically all feels softer and more "car Like" but that could be down to rear springs at -55lbs poundage, but it IS nicer to drive ! If you wnat axle flex I see no point in using hard bushes ! Re the washers, the Blues on hard movement made the bushes look like tey were going to explode, thats why I made up the washers in the post, these do definately take the pressures off the buishes, and logic then says it will help them flex more.... I COULD make some extra washers, but I am nervous about how much I can charge for a set of what are only washers !...they DO take a damned long time to make, and not all of them pop out perfect 1st time...I have a workshop floor to prove that, but if you are serious about some "KittyWashers TM " PM me.... You also cannot use them with the genuine front radius arms bushes to chassis, the genuines have washers as part of their contruction, so to use them you must go Polybush on the front, the washer at the front ebd is already saucered, so you need 6x for a 90, 2 for the front, 4x for the rear... Nige Edited November 20, 2005 by Hybrid_From_Hell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 So, pics ?.................... Rear Axle does fit in arch Front does move nicely now, this was the biggest cross axle we could find ! : Nige Nige, those rear tub mods make a BIG difference. Here's mine for comparisson: (No springs were dislocated in the making of this photo) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernchris Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 (edited) Nige What springs did you use in the end? Edited November 20, 2005 by northernchris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted November 20, 2005 Author Share Posted November 20, 2005 Well done Nige, I'm glad all of the effort has paid off. So what height have you ended up with on the 90 in the end?Cheers Steve 10- 15mm higher than std 90 rear(with all gear on etc) , and 5mm up on front With 34 inch simex, and much cutting of arches and bodywork to allow full movement............. Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPR Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Congratulations on the great results. The setup looks fab. .......It's nice to see you coily chaps catching up with the leafers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall_CSK Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Very nice nice Nige, glad to see it on (off) the road at last. I did a similar thing with the Rangie radius arm cup washers by turning them the wrong way round, did seem to help quite a bit. Only thing that I was concerned about was the contact surface area and more or less came to the same conclusion. Do the Kittywashers have a larger than standard contact face? I will be watching with interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Nige, your radius arms don't look standard - where did you get them from? cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted November 22, 2005 Author Share Posted November 22, 2005 A Nice nutter here called Dollythelw... They are the [french mode on] ballon Du Chien [french mode off] Good value, exceptionally HHHDDDuty (my type of engineering ) damned well made, .....and if he has anymore buy a set Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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