Land Rovers to pay to go any where in London

[PaulMc]

So we should have no pollution standards/fines at all as it's a load of balls to raise money and go back to the days of smog then?

Why should people be persecuted, fined and criminalised for driving vehicles that met the appropriate standards when they were built and continue to meet the appropriate standards at their annual MOT inspection ?

After all, if pollution standards are only for tax and not to reduce pollution we would still have smog so bad you can't see your hand 2m in front of you some days.

Oh, hang on... we don't have that anymore because standards came in that worked.

I'm not questioning the need for pollution standards. I have a problem with the retrospective application of current standards to vehicles that were built to previous standards. These vehicles, because of their age, are going to be few in number, probably owned by individuals rather than businesses and of little or no consequence to the overall cleaning-up of air pollution - Let's not forget, these are road-legal, MOT'ed vehicles we're talking about.

While I agree that a lot of what the government does is carp it does not mean it all is. There is a difference between local pollution (like in cites) and global pollution too.

I get the feeling I'm in the minority here that thinks sometimes the bigger picture is worth it...

"The bigger picture" - this is the one where electric cars can use London streets without incurring the wrath of Kommissar Livingstone "because they don't pollute" - all the while ignoring the dirty industry that makes their batteries, the coal and oil fired power stations that generate their electricity (churning out all sorts of muck on someone elses doorstep), the inefficiencies of turning fossil fuel into electricity, distributing that electricity to consumers and then using that electricity to charge a battery.

BTW, I'll still have my 300TDi pick up when the rules come in. But it will have an exhaust trap to catch the excess particulates if needed so that it passes. The fine is so high to make people convert vehicles. If it was £5 per day people would fork out (and moan) each day instead and in the long run the government would probably earn more.

The estimated cost of this modification is ridiculously high and beyond the reach of most ordinary people. Obviously, a sainted few with more money than sense, an attitude of self-righteousness and a slavish willingness to comply will toe the line unquestioningly.

Right, I'm off now. Tomorrow I'll just say it's a load of balls. Saves time looking in to it or having a balanced discussion because the government are only interested in one thing... Money.

I've looked into this thoroughly since it was first made public and my conclusion that it's a load of b****cks stands.

Livingstone and TFL have sneaked this legislation through without any proper public consultation. They're not making the public aware of the full implications of this legislation. The adverts I've seen (on a few bus shelters) or heard (on local radio) only refer to "old buses and lorries" being affected from February, there's no mention of commercials over 3.5 tonnes being affected in July, or all commercials between 1.205 tonnes and 3.5 tonnes being affected in October 2010 and certainly no mention of the standard being raised to Euro IV in January 2012. Although, the TFL website does tell all if you happen to go there - http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/default.aspx

Consulting bus operators, hauliers and large businesses is NOT public consultation. The average man on the street has no idea that this is around the corner waiting for him.

Paul.

[Buzz]

I hope the surrounding County Councils will tell him where to get off, He always seems to overstep his none elected post.

Unfortunatley not, the cameras have already been installed on all the major roads within the M25.

It's easy to jump on the bandwagon and slag off the mayor/city/country but most of the people who have to work and live in central London will appreciate the difference.

Richard

One of the things I have an issue with is that when this was first mentioned it was put across as a means to get rid of old lorrys from central London, but its being implemented within the whole of the M25. Since when has everything inside the M25 been central London?

Also as we now know, this legislation is going to impact on all diesel commercial vehicles down to 1.2 tonnes in the end, thats a lot more than just old lorrys. This is the part that traps the most series 3's and all 90, 110, 127, 130, discovery commercials and freelander commercials in the end.

The only exception appears to be if your land rover is a car and not a commercial vehicle, as was mentioned earlier. Although I'm not sure thats 100% true, as my 90 is a station wagon and reads "LR 90 4C SW" on the V5, but when i run the number plate through their checking system it says it won't comply after 2010.

This does cause me a bit of an issue as i live just inside the M25, £100 to park my car on the drive, i'd rather not. Up until this came out I thought there was a difference between central London and the London boroughs that strecth out to the M25, but it appears not, and its all now become central London for this bit of legislation. I thought this lez was only going to be in the congestion charging zone when they refered to it as central London.

Anyway we can rest assured that the air quality will not improve enough and the legislation will have to be extended to include cars as well, and then soon after introduced to a city centre near you.

Buzz.

[q-rover]

But it will have an exhaust trap to catch the excess particulates if needed so that it passes. The fine is so high to make people convert vehicles.

Richard

Don't bother.

Have you looked into doing this?

Do you know it will make very little difference, is very expensive and you will only be able to

run engine oils that are compatible with particulate filters. None of which are suitable for a 300Tdi.

[gazelle]

I've done a search of the boards but haven't found any mention of Ken's latest wheeze - the Low Emission Zone (LEZ). I haven't quite fathomed how Land Rovers are rated as commercial vehicles but when I checked my vehicles on the Transport for London site ( http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez ) my 1965 109 was OK but both my 1993 90SV and my 2001 Tomb Raider will be allowed into London for free after 4th Feb 2008 but will have to pay at least £100/day after October 2010!

Any thoughts, any one?

There was one here some time ago : Link to reply from LEZ admins. I have pointed to the last post as this was the reply that they made showing some recognition that Defenders are not necessarily commercial vehicles.

I have not chased again as yet.

[Astro_Al]

Nah they have taxes here and although they call poms wingers when they moan like hell that fuel is 45 pence a ltr and the average cost of a house with 4 bedrooms large garage and pool in the cneter of Brisbane is creeping up towards the sky high price of £180,000

Every country has its problems , and pretty much every where ever you live you have to pay tax so you might as well make the surroundings and weather nice

And nah the brits (having now seen it from outside) tend to be too polite and don't winge like alot of other countries therefore the goverment just go ahead and do what they want

After all look at what the french do . Ok they may be Oiks but it works

Ali

Hmmm. I've been round Oz, including the East coast - Briz / Fraser Island all that. Its a lovely place. I'm glad you like it out there, and congratulations on a successful move, but personally I wouldn't live in the centre of Brisbane if you paid me. I find the 'surroundings' in England extremely pleasant. And believe it or not, I don't even mind the weather.

Also, there's nothing that great about the way the French do things. I'm severely boned by the tax man every five minutes, the typical french strikes you refer to do nothing for the average 'frenchman' and are often not supported by the majority of the population, they just make getting to work, or getting out of the country, absolute hell.

England is a beautiful, civilised, moderate, interesting, progressive country (for the most part). I agree everywhere has its problems, but as they go, England ain't so bad.

Sorry for the O/T post.

Al

[Can anyone attach a 'National Anthem' sound file to this post please?]

[gazelle]

I have not chased again as yet.

Sent chaser. Will let you know.

[q-rover]

Hmmm. I've been round Oz, including the East coast - Briz / Fraser Island all that. Its a lovely place. I'm glad you like it out there, and congratulations on a successful move, but personally I wouldn't live in the centre of Brisbane if you paid me. I find the 'surroundings' in England extremely pleasant. And believe it or not, I don't even mind the weather.

Also, there's nothing that great about the way the French do things. I'm severely boned by the tax man every five minutes, the typical french strikes you refer to do nothing for the average 'frenchman' and are often not supported by the majority of the population, they just make getting to work, or getting out of the country, absolute hell.

England is a beautiful, civilised, moderate, interesting, progressive country (for the most part). I agree everywhere has its problems, but as they go, England ain't so bad.

Sorry for the O/T post.

Al

[Can anyone attach a 'National Anthem' sound file to this post please?]

I prefer Norway...

[reads90]

Hmmm. I've been round Oz, including the East coast - Briz / Fraser Island all that. Its a lovely place. I'm glad you like it out there, and congratulations on a successful move, but personally I wouldn't live in the centre of Brisbane if you paid me. I find the 'surroundings' in England extremely pleasant. And believe it or not, I don't even mind the weather.

Also, there's nothing that great about the way the French do things. I'm severely boned by the tax man every five minutes, the typical french strikes you refer to do nothing for the average 'frenchman' and are often not supported by the majority of the population, they just make getting to work, or getting out of the country, absolute hell.

England is a beautiful, civilised, moderate, interesting, progressive country (for the most part). I agree everywhere has its problems, but as they go, England ain't so bad.

Sorry for the O/T post.

Al

[Can anyone attach a 'National Anthem' sound file to this post please?]

Hi

I am english and always will be english. And very proud to be . The Uk you are talking about is differant to what i am talking about. You must have miss understod

I don't suddenly not like the uk. I love the rolling hills , History , Old country pubs, Curry houses of the uk and miss them. But it's the goverment in the Uk and the costings of things i don't miss

Ali

BTW better to attc JERUSALEM song

[Guest WALFY]

Curry is not an English dish, never has been, never will be. English with capitol E please

[reads90]

Curry is not an English dish, never has been, never will be. English with capitol E please

Yeah you are right sorry about that quick typing and not checking

I was waiting for that

But curry is now the national dish of the England as it is eaten more than any other dish in the England

[Guest WALFY]

Just because it's eaten by the majority doesn't mean that the majority are English. We all know that we have a huge problem with outsiders.

Enough of this . It's drifting far to far O/T. And could prove to be too controvertial for the moderators.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[reads90]

Just because it's eaten by the majority doesn't mean that the majority are English. We all know that we have a huge problem with outsiders.

Enough of this . It's drifting far to far O/T. And could prove to be too controvertial for the moderators.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Ok

[western]

It's drifting far to far O/T. And could prove to be too controvertial for the moderators.

getting a bit Big Brother is about.

[Happyoldgit]

getting a bit Big Brother is about.

Certainly is ...but it's going to get back on topic PDQ right?

[Videoman]

It needs to be euro III by 2010.

I can't see how TD5s are not euro III, as if they were not Land Rover would not have been allowed to sell them after 1st Jan 2001 when all vehicles had to be euro III by law. Did they do a mod or were they all euro III ? (which I would have thought they were)

So your Tomb Raider should be fine.

My opinion was this was going to hit older diesel vehicles such as 300TDi and earlier. By the time it comes in you are talking about vehicles around 12 years and older. Classic registered vehicles are exempt.

Unfortunately now we have a London mayor (who costs us a fortune) it will not change even if a new candidate gets the job.

Having visited the centre of London in the summer I would agree that diesel fumes are a problem. Unfortunately while sorting out all the old vans, buses and taxis some land rovers are going to get caught.

It's easy to jump on the bandwagon and slag off the mayor/city/country but most of the people who have to work and live in central London will appreciate the difference.

Richard

Thanks for the comment, Richard.

I've checked my V5s and the 90SV (1st registered 30/08/1993) is described as 'Private/Light Goods (PLG)' whilst the 11/09/2001 Tomb Raider is described as 'Diesel Car'.

Both fail the 2010 limits according to the TfL web site! I think I may have some letters to write!

[Top90]

Thanks for the comment, Richard.

I've checked my V5s and the 90SV (1st registered 30/08/1993) is described as 'Private/Light Goods (PLG)' whilst the 11/09/2001 Tomb Raider is described as 'Diesel Car'.

Both fail the 2010 limits according to the TfL web site! I think I may have some letters to write!

IF they are passenger carrying varients they should come under the 'M1' class as a car and be exempt anyway.

All commercials are 'N1' class which get caught.

Problem is earlier vehicles did not have this idenifier on the log book.

I have however had some of my converted disabled minibuses (listed at N1 Vans) changed to paassenger (M1) class by sending them to the DVLA and requesting the change.

If you can do the same and ask them to change yours by adding the M1 to the log book they would be exempt automatically.

My vehicles were built as vans, but then converted. As yours were passenger vehicles to start it must be worth a try.

Richard

[gazelle]

IF they are passenger carrying varients they should come under the 'M1' class as a car and be exempt anyway.

All commercials are 'N1' class which get caught.

I challenged this with the LEZ in September, (see the thread linked to in earlierpost ). I challenged Ken on the basis that my V5 classes my Def. TD5 90 CSW as a Diesel car type M1, which is exempt. When I phoned them they had it down as a N1 type vehicle.

As also stated earlier in this topic the LEZ people have unilaterally decided that as a Defender is classed as a utility vehicle on the same certificate, then they class it as commercial - despite the DVLA classification.

That is the best challenge, as it is documented on more recent V5's. Vehicles that were vans and classed as N1 will have more problems challenging, (even if they are now passenger carrying vehicles), as will older Defenders which do not have the relevant classification on the logbook.

As a result of the challenge to the classification that I put in, they are looking again at Defenders "with the manufacturers" , but said that they would take 6 months for the update to be put in. How they intend differentiating defenders that are used for business and those used for personal use - who knows.

The full text of their letter to me reads as follows:

Thank you for your enquiry received on 26th September, regarding the compliance status of your

Land Rover.

I can now confirm that we are working towards changing the status of Land Rover Defender’s to

‘not subject to LEZ’ as long as they are used for private use and not commercial.

This may take some time so I would advise that you either wait for us to make the necessary

amendments which could take more than 6 months or you can register your vehicle with

ourselves by returning a completed compliance application form along with a photocopy of your

vehicle registration form.

If you have any questions regarding the Scheme you may find it useful to visit our website, just

log on to www.tfl.gov.uk/lezlondon. You may also telephone our Contact Centre on 0845 607

0009, Textphone 0207 310 8999 (if you have impaired hearing), where a member of staff will be

more than happy to help.

Thank you for contacting Transport for London.

Daljit Mahal

Operations Manager

Yours sincerely

London Low Emission Zone

MAYOR OF LONDON

Martin

Edited to say LEZ class ALL Defenders as N1 regardless of what the V5 says - so TOP90's method does not currently work...... We will have to see what they say when they have completed their update!!

[Steve King]

I challenged this with the LEZ in September, (see the thread linked to in earlierpost ). I challenged Ken on the basis that my V5 classes my Def. TD5 90 CSW as a Diesel car type M1, which is exempt. When I phoned them they had it down as a N1 type vehicle.

As also stated earlier in this topic the LEZ people have unilaterally decided that as a Defender is classed as a utility vehicle on the same certificate, then they class it as commercial - despite the DVLA classification.

That is the best challenge, as it is documented on more recent V5's. Vehicles that were vans and classed as N1 will have more problems challenging, (even if they are now passenger carrying vehicles), as will older Defenders which do not have the relevant classification on the logbook.

As a result of the challenge to the classification that I put in, they are looking again at Defenders "with the manufacturers" , but said that they would take 6 months for the update to be put in. How they intend differentiating defenders that are used for business and those used for personal use - who knows.

The full text of their letter to me reads as follows:

Martin

Edited to say LEZ class ALL Defenders as N1 regardless of what the V5 says - so TOP90's method does not currently work...... We will have to see what they say when they have completed their update!!

Thanks for the update Martin. I think that I will send TfL/LEZ an e-mail asking for clarification as well (on the basis of the more the merrier and keping the pressure up!)

On a slightly different, but very closely related subject, could I suggest that all forumeers (regardless of political opinions) able to vote in the forthcoming Mayor of London elections considerer their choice of candidate carefully?! (In other words although Boris might be an Upper Class Twit of the Year, he has already proposed getting rid of the extension to the congestion charging zone and might be open to reason regarding the LEZ.)

Steve

[gazelle]

Sent chaser. Will let you know.

Reply received:

Unfortunately, we are still waiting for TfL to re-classify the vehicles. If your vehicle was built for

commercial purposes it will be affected by the LEZ Scheme.

If your vehicle was not built for commercial purposes it may be that your vehicle will be

re-classified. TfL are looking at re-classifying some of the Land Rover models, however, as these

vehicles are not affected by the LEZ Scheme until 2010 this will not be done until nearer that

date.

Please let me take this time to apologise for any inconvenience that has been caused by this.

When a decision is made it will be publicised on our website.

[Holyzeus]

Thanks for the update

[CoolHands]

This sucks & I can't believe more people on here aren't concerned about it

[mike4444244]

This sucks & I can't believe more people on here aren't concerned about it

Hi thats probably because most forum members dont live in london, so its not as much a priority for most, I agree it sucks but i cant help feeling that resistance is futile, and that whatever you do another law will come along making it just that bit harder to keep using your landy... I did suggest fitting 2 batteries and an electric winch, and the crucial mains leccy hook up, then you can re register your landy as a hybrid, as (providing you have a tree/anchor) you can move the vehicle using electricity

Mike

[Holyzeus]

Flicking though LRW in the newsagents tonight they have an article on this, the summary was - coming to a city near you in the future and.... it will expand to other diesels, Discos.....

[Adz]

What a great way to encourage us to be more rural... hmm... that's it! I'm moving to Cumbria and farming high quality sheep for the brothels of Prestatyn.

Question - why would you want to take a Defender of any persuasion into a major city, let alone London unless for commercial reasons? Seems like a mad idea to me.

[Guest diesel_jim]

Question - why would you want to take a Defender of any persuasion into a major city, let alone London unless for commercial reasons? Seems like a mad idea to me.

Freedom of choice, thats why.

although i spent last weekend in london, and the best bit was coming back to Swindon.....

.... and thats bluddy saying somthing!