V8 Freak Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 The situation.... I have implanted the 4.6 I got from Pod (Thanks for letting it go Adrian..), it starts runs etc. so no major concerns... In transit / installation somewhere I knocked the crank sensor onto the crank wheel. I duly replaced the crank sensor but it's moved as the bracker needed to be bent back out slightly and the holes allow for adjustment etc. (It could have only been a matter of a few degrees out when re-installed.) I have an Omex 710 ECU and it has a way of setting up the tuning which I was able to follow with the use of a Snap-On timing gun and adjust the timing back to where it ought to be... Only thing is, it feels wrong.. Not pulling well, slow acceleration and no real guts when cruising. The Omex book of lies is farily well documented so I'm confident I did what was required. It's has a master timing setting that lets it know where TDC is etc. The manual says moving this setting by an integer of 1 translates to 30 degrees in the timing. Therefore we deduce 0.1 adjustment would be 3 degrees. By doing the timing adjustments as required, I need to adjust the master setting from the original setting of 11.40 that Adrian had to 11.98. That's a whopping change of 17.4 degrees... One tooth is only 10 degrees on the crank and it's definitely not been moved that much. When I drive along with the PC linked and change the Master Timing from the 11.98 to 11.40 or a noticable number in between the car changes from a sluggish beast to a more sprightly engine as you would expect a 4.6 to perform... Nige told me how MS is set up and I changed the software to emulate the same.... I ran the engine, warmed up, on high tickover where the timing is stable. I re-coded the software to fool it into thinking it was still on Idle and adjusted the scatter spark table to all read -10 degres... I then parked the timing gun in the engine bay, dialed 10 degrees out and adjusted the master timing number in the software to bring the TDC mark back onto it's marker. Bang on... 11.98 in the master timing right where the car runs pants. Did some driving this afternoon and settled on a compromise of 11.60 for fair accleration and cruise as I didn't want to be potentially running too lean and heat the engine up too much. Any suggestions as to why doing this the right way potentially gives me a very wrong solution ? Omex manual if required to help me..... Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions.... Any references to Diseasels will not be considered as helpful ! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Any references to Diseasels will not be considered as helpful ! But we never have problems with them Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 So not being able to find Flywheel bolts is not considered a problem ! One of those nice V8 boys found you some and they are in the post now... (Should be with you Monday..) Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Good to see you got the engine fitted and running. Does this mean your fuel consumption will be even worse now? Can't help with the query though as I have a nice simple diesel Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Sadly I have all sorts of 'research stuff' I have aquired whilst looking at MS, Omex DTA Emerald etc. I have a manual for your system that seems significantly different. Have a read - I will too, there more in this on setting up etc It may be too big for the forum to allow, if so and there is not attachment to this post PM me your e-mail addy and I'll ping it over Should be interesting learning curve Nige Nope 4mb too big PM your e-mail PM Recived Big F Lumpy E-mail squirted down the line Let us know if of any use / help ? and advise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Sounds like a strange method to set timing all I can suggest is you try to adjust the sensor as it seems to have more accuracy than the ECU settings allow for. Or you set the offset value to something safe and then shift your whole timing map up by a proper number of degrees to make it correct, even if the numbers then read wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 Or you set the offset value to something safe and then shift your whole timing map up by a proper number of degrees to make it correct, even if the numbers then read wrong. Yeah.. Just said as much in a PM to Nige... If the Master Setting was not spot on when Adrian had the engine set up on the rolling road, me choosing another position (Using two methods that lead to the same place!!) doesn't mean I'll get the timing right for the spark table. I will need to mirculously know where it was when it was tuned.. Or I could be several degrees out right across the whole spark table ! Now that's a scary proposition. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Neil My Spark Map as requested DON'T go a blow it up Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 How much would you get for the Omex on eBay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 And you got a -10BTDC stat point before all of this Nige? i.e. 600RPM / 10 kPa = 26 BTDC?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 How much would you get for the Omex on eBay? No idea.. With loom it should cover the cost of MS.. Had a look but none listed ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 And you got a -10BTDC stat point before all of this Nige?i.e. 600RPM / 10 kPa = 26 BTDC?? No read yer pms Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 No read yer pms Nige Seen it now.. I popped up after I replied ! Maybe I'm just getting too fast for the board ! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 When it comes to Ign Adavnce Cams can make a HUGE Difference. Mine is a JE101 Have a lookie at the charts, do you know what yours is ?? If you can identify advise - and then compare with a std cam This can affect timing and a "Lumpy" cam will mean the base timings prob needs to be more correct than a Std one (You will see with mine why I have valve overlap and a roughish tickover ) If you also do decide to MS and recoup £££s on Ebay this would also help with an initail spark MAP Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 No idea which Cam it is... Adrian said it was from RPi and designed for torque, but he couldn't remember the cam specifics. Serpentine front so it may narrow it down a bit. I'll check out the site tomorrow. (later) Spark map from my system.... Some areas stand out like the -30 entries and generally quite different from yours at first glance ! More reading later but I feel a few Z's for me now or I'll ebay it before I give it a chance ! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 so it runs but not that good more than happy with my 200Tdi thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 more than happy with my 200Tdi thanks And many happy cambelts to you too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 so it runs but not that good Cold starts are rough... Needs looking after for approx. 5 mins... After that it ticks over fine and drives better than my old 3.9, just not "much" better... But compared to a 200Tdi... Sorry.. Does not compute ! Rocket and tortoise come to mind ! It's me wanting to know / do everything straight away Ralph... I just want it perfik but it ain't yet ! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 ....And the tortiose struggling with exceptionally heavy shopping Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 Yowza.. Some good news.... Changed the rocker covers today and calibrated the water temp sender and a few dozen other things.... Jumped in and started the engine... Chigging away spluttering.. Looked into the calibration for fuel / coolan trim. Took a number from +40% to +10% and the engine ran smooth as silk no need to nurse til it was warm and me woz a happy chappie.... Changed the other trim numbers to make a nice smooth graph and will test it more as the week rolls on.. Might even start a thread as Nige suggested... So you can all see how poo ai really am at this engine changing lark... Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 I think the -30’s are there to be used as an engine cut rev limiter……………… If those numbers are true degrees BTDC then the spark table is poor at the bottom end and reasonable under load at the top end. You could do with more top end advance under low load to produce a cleaner burn and thus increase the mpg. Overall that is an exceptionally safe table………….top end at full load is 28 degrees and that is the rover design parameter ………… normally you can go to 34 degrees dependent upon CR and valve timing………. I cant understand why anybody would want a 14x21 spark table? ……… I’m guessing that Omex is not very good at interpolating the in-between numbers so needs a ‘full house’ Idle could be rough depending on what cam is in there ……….. if it is a fairly wild cam then the overlap will give you a poor idle below 1000rpm…………… To make any really useful suggestions I need to know more about the engine itself …………….CR ?, Cam ?, and cam timing setup (i.e. was the cam timing set to zero, or – from Zero, or + from zero ……….. if so , by how much ?) Oi Bl@@dy Henson ………… we wont got into the detail of Cranked Heads, blown head gaskets, snapped rubber bands, bu@@ered lift pumps, leaking vacuum pumps, dodgy sump sealing, leaking fuel injection pumps, seized injectors and glow plugs, leaking turbo oil feeds, broken valve caps, cracked and/or melted pistons……… the list is endless……………….. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 I've chucked in what I know Ian... I think the -30’s are there to be used as an engine cut rev limiter………………The ones at the top end maybe, but Omex has a separate rev limiter. It cuts fuel at a soft limit and fuel and spark at the ceiling limit... The ones in the middle of the table look a bit worrying... If those numbers are true degrees BTDC then the spark table is poor at the bottom end and reasonable under load at the top end. You could do with more top end advance under low load to produce a cleaner burn and thus increase the mpg. Overall that is an exceptionally safe table………….top end at full load is 28 degrees and that is the rover design parameter ………… normally you can go to 34 degrees dependent upon CR and valve timing………. I believe true BTDC numbers but I'm not sure it it was set up to know where true TDC was accurately before mapping took place. When I set it up to the manual specifications I get an engine that is very sluggish. Definitely too far before TDC. Advance it up 10 degrees or more and it's great ! Once I understand what the timing should be I will consider making changes, but not at present.. Best be safe for now. I cant understand why anybody would want a 14x21 spark table? ……… I’m guessing that Omex is not very good at interpolating the in-between numbers so needs a ‘full house’ Maybe, or they see it as more professional?? Who knows.. Not worth getting to fussed over ! Idle could be rough depending on what cam is in there ……….. if it is a fairly wild cam then the overlap will give you a poor idle below 1000rpm…………… After the coolant temp correction was tinkered with earlier and plugs cleaned, re-gapped etc. it ran very well at 750, not robotic steady but not too much wavering at all. No hunting like before. To make any really useful suggestions I need to know more about the engine itself …………….CR ?, Cam ?, and cam timing setup (i.e. was the cam timing set to zero, or – from Zero, or + from zero ……….. if so , by how much ?) Sorry Ian, can't help here too much but I'll ask Adrian if he knows... He told me this before.... Not much help though.. Block: V8 Developments top hat liners Heads: V8 developments ultimate big valve heads( stage 4 or 5) Crank: reground when built, mains and big ends Rods: all checked and cleaned and reused Pistons and rings and pins all new genuine parts Cam: RPI special, can't remember which one but designed for torque. Lifters: new Rockers and shafts new Injectors all new I'll try and find out some more about the cam and timing setup etc. The front end has a checked and marked TDC line but I doubt that helps to know where the cam was set up.... I'll share anything I learn about the engine. May even ring Chris at RPi and see if he can check what the cam was. You never know... Thanks for looking and helping me thus far... Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 Ian, Grabbed this from the RPi site.... "Our entire Piper Cam Shaft range is profiled for standard cam shaft timing. Therfore the 0 degree mark should be used for the cam shaft timing, this is also relevant for standard cam shafts. " So I'm assuming it's set up at Zero presently. I've dropped a note to Adrian in case he knows where it was set up for sure and I'll let you know if he can help in this matter. For now, I'm off trying to identify cam used... Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 OK ……………………….whilst RPI may say that, there is a good case for anything up to 4 degrees advance, or 4 degrees retard depending on the use.........one setting increases the low end torque at the expense of the top end................ the other does the reverse................most off road type use would require a zero setting........... Does Holly still work at RPI ? ..............he would be the most reliable person to speak with........... Making some educated guesses, I would say that the cam is probably an RP4 which I believe comes from a piper blank……….this cam is not as radical as the HFH JE102 beast, and slightly more tame than mine which is a Comp Cams Cyclone………. This cam is a good choice in an off road vehicle as it has quite a wide power band……… Its arguable that big valve heads destroy some of the very low down torque, but IMHO they are a worthwhile investment…………. I would assume that if it was tuned on a RR then the timing would be MBT ………. But the lower rpm values do not seem quite right……….. I would suggest that you remove the -30 values unless there is a parameter in the ECU that understands that number as a trigger, because going from 30 degrees + advance to -30 degrees retard at 6800 rpm will not be good for the internals…………. Having said that, I doubt whether in reality that you will ever see 6800 rpm……….. My timing should be safe on your engine ………… its buried somewhere in the MS saga thread, but I can repost if you want……… So from your description the build sounds like, V8 Developments TH linered block ………….. good strong choice V8 Developments BV Heads ……………….. not good, I’ll give you a fiver for them Std Crank, Rods & Pistons ……………….. OK, but do not rev beyond 5500…….. Cam…………………………………………maybe RPI RP4 Timing Gear ……………………………….. Most likely a JP duplex, but could also be a piper vernier . ……… for now we will assume the cam timing is zero…….. This engine correctly set up is probably good for a conservative 280bhp………… B) Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 My cam is an RP4 in a 4.6, don't have specs but perhaps tuning data from mine may help? That reminds me - Ian, any chance you could send me an updated spark map, I think I'm still running the "boosted" one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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