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Calling all MS people...


V8 Freak

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If you want more flow / bigger injector rates - straight fits are Jag 4.2 Bosch units from circa 1986 XJ Straight 6s :)

Have a part no somewhere if yer need it

Nige

Thanks Nige, I might call upon you one day (black tops from Jags about 215cc/min IIRC?) but Im confident they are doing the job in hand, the next build is a 4.6 which has a complete inlet manifold and injector system.

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Sorry for the Hijack V8freak.......

I wont see any gain (save losing a resistor pack) for a reasonable amount of disruption IMHO.

True ............. it involves bit of wiring to cut out the plug and bypass the resistor pack, and then a bit of fiddling with the ECU..................

The resistor pack itself is pretty bomb proof once it has been sealed............. with my old one I took out the socket and hardwired it. Then fill the socket area and the two casing seals with RTV ............. job done...........

The molex plug and socket are the only unreliable bit of the pack..................... come to think about it, Molex connectors in communications equipment kept me gainfully employed for a number of years as a systems engineer ...............

:)

Ian

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No problems with the hijack guys...

All helps me (And others hopefully) to learn or at least come up with more questions....

Bit of an update.

Over the last few nights I've constructed a spark table based on some of those posted here... This is not to replace what's already in the Omex ECU long term as this was pulled together by someone who knows a lot more than me, it's more to understand where the master timing is and effects on change...... By having another table using timings expected/similar to the manual advance mechanism of a dizzy I thought I could have a reference point for the timing... (i.e. tickover @750 rpm = approx. 10BTDC etc.)

Basically I uploaded the new calibration, ran the car and changed from the master timing that Adrian had in the system to the "scientifically calculated" one using the timing light etc.

The original timing number already in the system worked a treat, and the calculated one was pants.. Major league pants.... The timing light also showed the expected approx. 10 BTDC when on tickover, when using the original master timing number.

Initial conclusion is that the original master timing setting, regardless of me moving the crank sensor somwehat, appears to be a more accurate measure for the system to know where TDC is.

So either I'm missing something fundamental when setting the timing, missed something in the documentation or the TDC line is in the wrong place.... (You may all be able to offer may other suggestions, but I'll stick with the basics for now.)

I'm going for one of the former presently as Adrian assures me that the TDC line is accurate and was done when the engine was re-built.

So, back to the reading and wondering... I'm wondering if I may have added 10 degrees in somewhere with my logic / flawed logic so will re-think and ponder, and think some more...

I'll post up the tables if anyone interested.... But they aren't meant to be scientific or correct so lets not get too hung up on what I've constructed....

But.. Good news.... It's all holding water, not leaking or using oil AND IT RUNS !!!!!!! Yipee....

Neil

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But.. Good news.... It's all holding water, not leaking or using oil AND IT RUNS !!!!!!! Yipee....

Neil

Great, so do you want to take it to Barwick and Furneaux Pelham fords to test it out?? It's no good if it can't cope with the odd puddle and after all this rain they should be deep enough to test it ;););)

Steve :P

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Great, so do you want to take it to Barwick and Furneaux Pelham fords to test it out?? It's no good if it can't cope with the odd puddle and after all this rain they should be deep enough to test it ;););)

Steve :P

Let me move the rocker breather inside the cab and hook up the snorkel Steve and we'll have a go matey.... Need to find out somehow, and might as well be local and not the Lakes or some other far away place....

Apart from being a V8 petrol thingy and in need of a spark etc., it should be fairly robust around / in the H2O stuff... <GULP>

Neil

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Steve's not a Diseasel owner.....

He's a frustrated V8 driver bound by the evil of finance and looking after the planet and the desire to stop at fewer filling stations...

I'm sure he'll be converted back to the dark side one day.....

Neil

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Hi peeps....

Still no further along with master timing although a long chat with Nige helped. He gave me some homework to do so I'll ave a crack at that tomorrow and see if I can get a good grade...

Engine running well, once started now.... But it's a pig to start from cold. I have no idea if it's over fuelled or underfuelled.. Basically it's a game to get it above 400 rpm and into the normal spark/fuel maps where it immediately responds and is happy...

I've got a specific cranking section (For starting engine) separate idle section (Yes, it's just there to look after engine at idle) main spark and fuel maps and then a transition area.

What sort of settings are in MS for starting ? What sort of fuel and timing are used ?

I'll do bit more of a read up on my system again later and post up the screens of the cranking area. I'm sure moving a few numbers will make it jump into life easier each time I try...

Taking family out for a meal tonight to celebrate my wife giving birth to our son 12 years ago... Oh the pain and sufferng....

Neil

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Tuning of Cranking, Afterstart and Warmup Enrichment settings in Megatune are covered in the manual here: http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Tu...anual.htm#howto

In MS, idle values are just an area (bottom leftish for low load and low RPM) within the fuel and spark maps.

Other than that, and not sure that i think it'll help with Omex issues but if you want to familiarise yourself a bit more with MS features, download a copy of Megatune, load in some maps and have a much about with it offline.

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If it struggles to get away from cranking it could be your cranking RPM is set too high - that's the RPM at which the ECU stops being in cranking mode (usually throwing lots of fuel in) and being in running mode (albeit with a load of after-start enrichment). At leas that's what MS does :unsure:

more_cranking.png

cranking.png

after_start.png

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Great, so do you want to take it to Barwick and Furneaux Pelham fords to test it out?? It's no good if it can't cope with the odd puddle and after all this rain they should be deep enough to test it ;););)

Steve :P

well if he drowns it you can take pictures & pull him out :blink: if it deals with those 2 like it did with the 3.9 in it's :i-m_so_happy:

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Can't agree more Ian....

I was considering rigging the hose into the cooling system and just flushing it theough for an hour to get it cold again after each attempt... Bit of a waste of water I guess.

I have found someone not too far away running a RV8 and Omex710.. Waiting for hom to call back and see if hell let me see his cold start settings. Will help me to see if mine are wildly out.....

For today's attempt I've reduced hte initial fuelling in case it's pouring toomuch fuel in. If it failes to start, I'll leave it and aim high !

:)

Neil

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TBH I'm not sure how effective that'd be because the oil may still hold some warmth so you wouldn't be starting from a "cold soaked" engine block.

To be honest, it was what I thought too....

I'll see about moving the coil packs to the front of the engine instead then.. The engine can offer me a little warmth ! :)

Only way I can see I'll fit the mahoosive air filter under the bonnet...

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Well I didn't manage to stick to plans at all....

Only good news was dropping the cranking settings to reduce the fuel input meant it actually cranked and started this evening without coaxing with the throttle. (Had stood for about 4 hours)

Not faultless but starting. I'll try the same settings on the engine again tomorrow after it's sat for nearly 24 hours. A bit more tweaking to come I think.

I've been swapping back and forth from orginal timing map and the one I built from some of those posted by MS users. The original is definitely better for raw performance which is what Adrian really had it all built and set-up for.

The "softer" averaged timing map I made performs well, pulls well across the rev range and drives well in overdrive.

Seems I have two working timing maps now.. One for play and one for everyday use perhaps ! I'll get the fuel emissions checked soon and make sure my map isn't likely to be doing any damage....

Still smiling all the time though. The engine running real well and driving well.

I'll stop jabbering on now....

Neil

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As the A6 was in for some warranty work today, I took the 110 into work....

Nice 30 mile drive on the calculated ignition map.. Cruised in overdrive at 70 MPH a dream. :)

While I had it there I hooked it up the the box of tricks we hide in the corner and took note of the exhaust output.

At tickover (750ish RPM)

CO2 = 2.1

HC = 220

At 2000 RPM

CO2 = 2.7

HC = 100

Do the HC's look a little high ? Please remember this is a calculated / guessed / estimated ignition timing map and not the one that was originally in the ECU and matched to the fuelling map. I didn't have time in the day to load up the original map as well.

The ignition map looks like this

post-1475-1201900789_thumb.jpg

And in graph format, like this

post-1475-1201900830_thumb.jpg

Neil

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The CO (Carbon monoxide - not CO2 ! :P ) levels look fine and the HC’s are excellent…………….

Usually the MOT guy would base the requirement on the age of your truck and not the age of the engine………. therefore IIRC you are allowed 4% (maybe4.5%) CO and 1200ppm HC (Hydrocarbons)

The numbers above indicate to me that you are running slightly rich at idle which RV8’s are more than happy about, usually it’s the only way to get a good stable idle. They seem to idle best at AFR’s of 13 – 13.5:1………your CO figure would indicate you are in that area.

The low HC’s indicate that you are getting a good ‘burn’ with very little unburnt fuel in the exhaust stream. This is both a function of mixture and timing.

Looking at the timing map…………. Its OK and what I would expect. You maybe could go a tad more advance at 800 -1000rpm, but I see no point as the HC and CO figures are good. TBH your map is very similar to mine.

The above numbers also indicate that the cam is quite mild, so I would suggest it is in fact an RP4 …………… the wilder the cam, then the higher the hydrocarbons as the valve overlap causes a lot of unburnt fuel to enter the exhaust…………..then you have to retard the timing and / or lean off the mixture to get it past an MOT (or set the idle to 1500 – 2000 rpm ;)

You are certainly making good progress…………. :i-m_so_happy:

Ian

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Thanks Ian....

The timing model was based on your map, you suggested it a while back.

I'll leave it to run as is until I get to adding in some more sensors, but that can wait til it's a bit warmer now.

As ever, any suggestions welcome.

Neil

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^^^^

Wot Ian said really :)

I did mention upping the base ign a few degrees, without discussing with Ian he is saying the same - which is good :lol:

So tweak it a tad :)

For a comparission my engine gave at the MOT 1.9 CO ad 2230 HC :(

I was allowed (under MOT rules) to "Up the revs" at 1800 all dropped to within limits - thats the issue of a lumpy cam :( - gives you some idea !

As such I also think you have a soft cam, so I would say my Ign Map will be too much, stick with what you have, tune the Fuel more then maybe a rolling road with Mark Adams for the final tweaks :) ?

Where you are now I'd now look at fitting a Lamda for further work ?

Nige

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Nige, Ian.... (and any others who stray in here to see how sad I am...)

Upping the numbers as in advancing towards TDC (lowering the number in the map) or upping as in moving farther from TDC (lowering the number in the map..)

My logic is playing havoc here... In my head to advance more means further before TDC...(Bigger number in the map) Is that right ?

Todays small jobs were to fit yet another stat.. Just can't find one that regulates aroun 88 degrees... Thrown 4 away so far... Openening way too late.. Nearer 95 degrees ! Not happy with that !

Anyone got any sources of something likely to be reliable?

Finally got to the bottom of the timing mystery. Some was water temp sensor which I recalibrated a few weeks back and one setting in the ECU that was moving the total spark number as a compensation.

Ironed that one out, dialled out 10 or 11 degrees when on tickover and adjusted the master timing number everso slightly to bring the line back to TDC.

Tested the setting at higher revs and was still bang on. Funny how one little thing can take me so long to understand... Must be the fading grey matter. (Moved from the original number of 11.40 to 11.49 which is a much more acceptable change for the amount the sensor could have moved...

Next jobs are probably about another 20 stats til I'm happy and then move the coil packs to the front to free up the space at the rear of the engine.

(May take some time off over half-term to ignore the kids and have a crack at the job...)

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Looking at the detail of your map, I would now say leave it as is ………….that map is safe and assuming those numbers are actual degrees BTDC then any further adjustment may well be cosmetic.

You already have the proof of the pudding as the CO/HC’s are excellent………….

Later you may want to create a valley in the timing map at the lower end ……….. to do that just increase everything in the 400rpm column by 2 or 3 degrees …………. that will help to stabilise the idle as the engine is loaded at idle ………… i.e. increase the load and the revs drop ……. the dropping revs suddenly see an increase in timing advance and this attempts to bring the revs up again ……………this does work, but an idle control valve works a whole lot better.

You will probably find that the best idle is somewhere around 750 rpm ……..

:)

Ian

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I was going to leave as is pretty much unless you or Nige said it "needed" the changes and not a "maybe" suggestion.

I'm just trying to find the mythical settings now to get it to start from cold unaided. I am very close....

The beauty of the Omex system is I don't need to make the valley you suggest. It runs in separate sections and one is idle. (It has Cranking, Idle, Normal Maps and a transition section to control acceleration and deceleration.)

It has a scatter spark idle setting and a map for advancing / retarding the ignition to maintain the desired idle RPM.

Once the criteria for idle have been met, (Mine are below 1000 RPM and no throttle) it uses the base timing for the tickover (So around 10 degrees) and then advances / retards to compensate for any deviance from +/- 25 RPM right up to +/- 325 RPM. Not quite an anti-stall device but it compensates for when the cooling fans come on, light go on etc. Adrian used it to compensate for heavy winching...

It also has a great feature for deceleration where if certain criteria are met it will cut the fuel so slight economy gains should be possible. I've told mine to cut fuel if RPM is above 1100 and throttle is below 1.5%. It either starts fuel injection again when the throttle is touched and goes above the limit set or the engine enters idle.

Might be worth 0.2 PMG... :)

Neil

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