Fitting a 200 TDI engine into a 404 MogNarrowing

[bill van snorkle]

Seriously considering getting a Mog 404, but for my use it definately needs a suitable deisel lump. The characteristics of the 200 TDI are not too far off what is required, but the lower half of the right hand side of the engine appears to be a bit wide to fit in the chassis, and at any rate would eat into drivers side leg space once the vehicle was converted to right hand drive. I had the idea that it may be possible to narrow the 200 tdi engine down by fitting the timing gear and timing covers from an early 2.25 litre Deisel to the 200 block, and then fit the injector pump vertically in the location where the current vacuum brake pump is fitted, just like the old 2.25 litre pump was driven. I don't have any loose bits and pieces of ether engine lying about socannot confirm if this would work. Anyone know if this is feasible?

Bill.

[jimfoo]

To me, it sounds like a lot of work, and a lot of stress on the cam gears as aren't they what drive the vacuum pump? The TDI pump will take more power than the IDI pump of the 2.25. A Merc TD won't fit? Or my favorite, a VW TD or TDI with a mechanical pump. IP is on the passenger side though intake/exhaust is on the drivers(right).

Someones 1.9l TDI modified running 28 psi with a VNT turbo.

[bill van snorkle]

VW engines as far as I know are not a viable option for Australia, unless that model vehicle starts selling in large numbers. The 200TDI is plentiful, has a good reputation in harsh conditions and is relatively cheap here.I'm not sure that the camshaft chain, sprocket and pump drive gear was the Archiles Heel of the old 2.25 deisels.The camshaft drive gear adaptor for the pump appears to be very beefy in fact and should be well capable of coping with the higher pressures generated by the bosch pump on the 200. I think the lucas injector pump and cylinder head were the main areas of concern on those old 2.25 litre rattlers. The brake vacuum pump can be replaced by a integral alternator type pump.

Bill.

[steve b]

Hi Bill,

What Mercedes cars do you have over there ? I was talking to a local independent merc car specialist the other day and he reckons the 617 diesel car engine will fit the 404...was fitted to cars up to the mid 80's. Baloo over on Difflock has a thread on trying to fit a 300TDi to a 404 ....some issues with welding the cut down 404 bellhousing tho, it seems to be some sort of uber caststeel alloy....if you need any measuring/photo's I do have a couple of 404's in bits

Are 404's RHD in Oz then? All the 404's over here are LHD , whichever side the steering wheel is there is b*gger all room in the cabs, it had crossed my mind to create a bonneted control cab to get away from the engine and have a bit more space for ergonomic seating/controls ....

To add to your Q , don't forget the old 2 1/4 Diesel is a 3 brg crank as well....

Cheers

Steveb

[dirtydiesel]

Hi Bill,

What Mercedes cars do you have over there ? I was talking to a local independent merc car specialist the other day and he reckons the 617 diesel car engine will fit the 404...was fitted to cars up to the mid 80's. Baloo over on Difflock has a thread on trying to fit a 300TDi to a 404 ....some issues with welding the cut down 404 bellhousing tho, it seems to be some sort of uber caststeel alloy....if you need any measuring/photo's I do have a couple of 404's in bits

Are 404's RHD in Oz then? All the 404's over here are LHD , whichever side the steering wheel is there is b*gger all room in the cabs, it had crossed my mind to create a bonneted control cab to get away from the engine and have a bit more space for ergonomic seating/controls ....

To add to your Q , don't forget the old 2 1/4 Diesel is a 3 brg crank as well....

Cheers

Steveb

Om617's are fitted to g wagons and sprinters as well and do look like they would fit the mog box.

[bill van snorkle]

Hi Bill,

What Mercedes cars do you have over there ? I was talking to a local independent merc car specialist the other day and he reckons the 617 diesel car engine will fit the 404...was fitted to cars up to the mid 80's. Baloo over on Difflock has a thread on trying to fit a 300TDi to a 404 ....some issues with welding the cut down 404 bellhousing tho, it seems to be some sort of uber caststeel alloy....if you need any measuring/photo's I do have a couple of 404's in bits

Are 404's RHD in Oz then? All the 404's over here are LHD , whichever side the steering wheel is there is b*gger all room in the cabs, it had crossed my mind to create a bonneted control cab to get away from the engine and have a bit more space for ergonomic seating/controls ....

To add to your Q , don't forget the old 2 1/4 Diesel is a 3 brg crank as well....

Cheers

Steveb

Hi Steve, I don't think Deisel powered Merc cars were ever common over here. Those who could afford to buy a new Merc car weren't too concerned with fuel economy.

404 Mogs over here are like rocking horse poo and all were LHD. I saw one converted to RHD a while back and as you say there is bugger all space particulrly on the right hand side of the cab. But for safety sake and full registration compliance I would want RHD.

Yeah I remember the 2.25 was three bearing,at least it was forged steel, but I wasn't intending to use the block and crank, only the timing cover and timing gears, and the camshaft if necessary. The rest, if the conversion was do able would be 200 TDI with a modified injector pump driveshaft to adapt it to drive in the vertical location in the same way that the 2.25 injector pump was driven. I'll have a look around some 4wd and truck breakers when I get a chance to see if there are any other high revving small deisels with the injector pump on the left side, but as Jimfoo pointed out, the inlet and exhaust manifolds are likely to be on the right hand side, with the bulk of these items encroaching into an already cramped driving compartment.

Any technical reason why the cab could not be moved back on the chassis to the semi forward control location and ashort bonnet and wings fabricated?

Bill.

[callum]

Hi Steve, I don't think Deisel powered Merc cars were ever common over here. Those who could afford to buy a new Merc car weren't too concerned with fuel economy.

404 Mogs over here are like rocking horse poo and all were LHD. I saw one converted to RHD a while back and as you say there is bugger all space particulrly on the right hand side of the cab. But for safety sake and full registration compliance I would want RHD.

Yeah I remember the 2.25 was three bearing,at least it was forged steel, but I wasn't intending to use the block and crank, only the timing cover and timing gears, and the camshaft if necessary. The rest, if the conversion was do able would be 200 TDI with a modified injector pump driveshaft to adapt it to drive in the vertical location in the same way that the 2.25 injector pump was driven. I'll have a look around some 4wd and truck breakers when I get a chance to see if there are any other high revving small deisels with the injector pump on the left side, but as Jimfoo pointed out, the inlet and exhaust manifolds are likely to be on the right hand side, with the bulk of these items encroaching into an already cramped driving compartment.

Any technical reason why the cab could not be moved back on the chassis to the semi forward control location and ashort bonnet and wings fabricated?

Bill.

heres an isuzu 4jb1 in a defender. you'll find the engine in rodeos and jackaroos over by you. its a bit more over to the left than to the right. downpipe exits straight down from the turbo and remains inside the right chassis leg. you'll know the spaceing of lad rover chassis legs so that might help size it.

[bill van snorkle]

heres an isuzu 4jb1 in a defender. you'll find the engine in rodeos and jackaroos over by you. its a bit more over to the left than to the right. downpipe exits straight down from the turbo and remains inside the right chassis leg. you'll know the spaceing of lad rover chassis legs so that might help size it.

thanks for that Callum. Our family wagon is actually a Jackaroo, albeit a 2.6 petrol one. When I go to the breakers next weekend to pick up a replacement for the cracked cylinder head on the wagon I'll measure up the 4jb1. I'd hope they are a little more bulletproof than the petrol engines though.

Bill.

[Astro_Al]

Hi Bill,

if swapping sides you should relocate the air intake (you'll have to) for pedal space and you might be able to stretch the passenger side footwell a tad too.

The easiest way to create more space is to simply stretch the back of the cab a few inches and move the seats back. This is what I'm doing. Its a lot easier than converting to non-forward-control. I see no reason why you can't go bonneted-control, just seems like a lot of work

Most of the conversions I have seen to diesel use Merc engines - did you search on Benzworld and the Mog Mailing list for ideas for engine swaps?

How about whatever Jez had in Petal? That thing was tiny, not sure about max revs though - should fit easily (2.8 tgv was it - sorry generally ignore diesel threads... ). A smaller engine would mean you could make the 'dog house' engine covers in the cab smaller and gain some space there, but its really legropom which is the issue, so elongating the back of the cab seems the easiest solution for that.

Are Mogs expensive or just rare out there? Thought about getting a cheapy shipped from Europe?

If you're swapping the steering over, will you add power assist at the same time?

Cheers, Al.

P.S. Steve - I'm still kind of after a spare g'box...

[Old Spot]

How about the Nissan SD33(6cyl 3.3ltr), nice and narrow and fairly short.

[muddy]

2.8 iszuzu lump in petal i beleive, i have heard very good things about these engines, and are they something like 42" from crank nose the flywheel?

[bill van snorkle]

Hi Bill,

if swapping sides you should relocate the air intake (you'll have to) for pedal space and you might be able to stretch the passenger side footwell a tad too.

The easiest way to create more space is to simply stretch the back of the cab a few inches and move the seats back. This is what I'm doing. Its a lot easier than converting to non-forward-control. I see no reason why you can't go bonneted-control, just seems like a lot of work

Most of the conversions I have seen to diesel use Merc engines - did you search on Benzworld and the Mog Mailing list for ideas for engine swaps?

How about whatever Jez had in Petal? That thing was tiny, not sure about max revs though - should fit easily (2.8 tgv was it - sorry generally ignore diesel threads... ). A smaller engine would mean you could make the 'dog house' engine covers in the cab smaller and gain some space there, but its really legropom which is the issue, so elongating the back of the cab seems the easiest solution for that.

Are Mogs expensive or just rare out there? Thought about getting a cheapy shipped from Europe?

If you're swapping the steering over, will you add power assist at the same time?

Cheers, Al.

P.S. Steve - I'm still kind of after a spare g'box...

Hi Al. the problem with using the smaller Benz deisels, VW's VM's OM's etc is that they are not common over here, so spares or complete replacement engines are difficult to impossible to find and expensive when you can get them particularly away from the major capital cities. This is pretty much a Japanese market, but LandRover have a reasonable representation, so for us it makes more sense to use a popular Jap engine or a LandRover TDI. Additionally it would appear that things that work adequately well in other regions aren't always succesful in Australian conditions, the Nissan SD33 that Old Spot just suggested being one example as they don't have a good rep over here.

404 Mogs are both extremely rare and expensive in OZ. The few that are about are private imports. One company is bringing in a number of low mileage ex Swiss Military units and reselling them for about $18,000 AUS. To this must be added the cost of RHD conversion and the cost of engine transplant. The only reason I am considering a Mog is that with the general anti 4x4 sentiment pervading this country, highly modified vehicles such as my Landrover are gradually being forced off the roads by the authorities. The only way I can see of maintaining the mobility I've become used to without the police hassles is to operate a fairly standard Mog.The extra camping space compared to my Landrover for family outings would also be useful.

Bill.

[Astro_Al]

42" ?!

All I know is it looks like a large sewing machine. Good choice for a cramped Mog I reckon (revs permitting).

Al.

[Astro_Al]

Yes I see Bill - I've heard bad things about getting modifications approved in Oz.

I wonder how much it'd cost to ship one out - 18k is about 8k here, you can get a lot of 404 for a fraction of that. Maybe worth a thought?

Al.

[bill van snorkle]

Yes I see Bill - I've heard bad things about getting modifications approved in Oz.

I wonder how much it'd cost to ship one out - 18k is about 8k here, you can get a lot of 404 for a fraction of that. Maybe worth a thought?

Al.(quote)

I believe the ex Swiss army mogs are as good as new at that price Al. But there is still the added cost of Deisel conversion.

.I think a 20 ft container from UK to Melborne is around $2000 AUS. then there is about another 600 or so for cleaning/quarantining etc. Due to the dreaded rust factor I find the idea of an ex UK Mog rather unappealing, so I'd assume that one would need to source one from the continent and take it over to the UK for shipping on.

Might have to plan my next overseas holiday in Europe.

bill.

PS, 42'' doesn't sound correct for the 2.8 Isuzu , Muddy. My 2.25 Rover engine is only around 30'' from fan to back of bellhousing. I recall removing a NA 2.8 Isuzu with a broken crankshaft from a 109 a few years ago and refitting a 3 litre 6 cylinder GM petrol. The Isuzu was tiny by comparison with a 2.25 Rover engine that I also had sitting on the workshop floor.

[Astro_Al]

Come now, Bill - you're not the type to throw cash at a problem when fabbing will do!

My Mog was 900 GB pounds, it has done about 9k miles. It is in extremely good nick - there isn't a single spot of surface rust on the chassis, the only issues (part from my customisation desires) are a crappy fuel tank selector switch (which they all are) and a bright yellow/lime green paint job that means I lose control of my sphincter every time I enter the garage.

I'm sure you could save half the cost by shipping an ebay Mog? PM me if you need someone in the UK to help.

Al.

[muddy]

sorry talking rubbish as usual , i blame it on being brought up in the metric system

wombles off..

[steve b]

P.S. Steve - I'm still kind of after a spare g'box...

Hi Al , there will be a gearbox out in a week or two, I'm also ready for those prop flanges now....we will have to get together soon ....

Bill , is there any opportunity to buy ex NZ army mogs? slightly closer than Europe, otherwise I'd second what Al said, there are well renovated 404's on UK ebay for reasonable money....it might be worth watching a few to see what they make. I'd offer you one of mine but they are a bit rusty

cheers

Steveb

[Astro_Al]

Hi Al , there will be a gearbox out in a week or two, I'm also ready for those prop flanges now....we will have to get together soon ....

Steve - sounds good, stick my name on it. I have some surgery planned for it...

Flanges are ready to roll. I'm in no hurry, but PM me for dates etc.

Cheers, Al.

[vinny]

Heres a picture of me alongside the 4J1BT in my 90!!

[callum]

Heres a picture of me alongside the 4J1BT in my 90!!

you have a funny timing case cover. hae you one of the elusive 4jb1's with timing gears instead of belt? is yours out of a trooper?

[vinny]

you have a funny timing case cover. hae you one of the elusive 4jb1's with timing gears instead of belt? is yours out of a trooper?

Yea Its got the timing gears... I was told by my local Isuzu dealer all the Irish spec 2.8s had gears as standard while the british/jap imports are fitted with belts!! Dont know if its true or not!! Anyway I have a second set of gears&casings in a box in the shed if anybodys interested?

[callum]

Yea Its got the timing gears... I was told by my local Isuzu dealer all the Irish spec 2.8s had gears as standard while the british/jap imports are fitted with belts!! Dont know if its true or not!! Anyway I have a second set of gears&casings in a box in the shed if anybodys interested?

hmm.....interesting, my timing belt is due for a change soon. any idea of what is required to switch from timing belt to timing gears? are they noisy in operation?

[vinny]

Re noise: its fitted in my 90!!

Ive no Idea what it would take to fit ive never taken one that was fitted with a timing belt apart!!

[bill van snorkle]

Hi Al , there will be a gearbox out in a week or two, I'm also ready for those prop flanges now....we will have to get together soon ....

Bill , is there any opportunity to buy ex NZ army mogs? slightly closer than Europe, otherwise I'd second what Al said, there are well renovated 404's on UK ebay for reasonable money....it might be worth watching a few to see what they make. I'd offer you one of mine but they are a bit rusty

cheers

Steveb

Steve, I think the NZ military like ours use the U1700 Mogs, which are a bit too huge for my needs. I have got to check my proposed modifications re RHD, Cab modifications and repowering with the local authorities before committing. Discussion this afternoon with a couple of mates suggests it may be more practical, with much better all round performance and economy, not to mention less hassle with officialdom to slap Mog axles under a 4wd Mitsubishi Canter, Toyota Dyna or similar.

Bill