Tom.H Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Hi, hoping to build a new truck in a few months and sell my range rover classic. I’ve been looking at the different types of suspension and have just come across the Max traction extreme suspension kit. Link http://www.maxtraction.co.uk/extremesus.htm The kit looks pretty good, especially as it claims to give a Land rover defender 750mm of travel under the back wheel without a lift. ‘Land rover 90 you would expect to reach around 750mm under the back wheel without wheel lift’ Just wondered if anyone is using the maxtraction extreme suspension kit on there land rover. If so would you be able to send me some information about it (is it worth the money), how does it handle . I few pictures would also be nice Thanks Tom (tonharyett@msn.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbsite Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Hi All, I first saw the Maxtraction stuff on the Tomcat stand at Billing a couple of years ago. Surely someone on this forum must have purchased what appears to be a very good system. I like the idea of long travel suspension with retained springs and standard bump stops rather than any sort of disocation system. At least tell us if its total C£@P so we dont end up wasting our money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 No experience of Max Traction, but you should take a very close look at what Simon is producing at X-eng. If I was starting from scratch I think that is where I would be spending my cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_LLAMA4x4 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Hi All,I first saw the Maxtraction stuff on the Tomcat stand at Billing a couple of years ago. Surely someone on this forum must have purchased what appears to be a very good system. I like the idea of long travel suspension with retained springs and standard bump stops rather than any sort of disocation system. At least tell us if its total C£@P so we dont end up wasting our money. Quite a few people must have the kits or John has a lot of dampers in stock as he orders a number of shocks from me to go with the kits..... The idea is right but I know people who have had issues with the back end wobbling..... they have tried to address this with dampers ( hence ordering from me instead of their original supplier ) which has helped but much of the problem lies in the nature of the rear spring. Yet again the better you make it offroad the less comfortable on the road compromise raises its head..... David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Tom, If I were to start again, then this is the path I would choose. It is a better compromise for on/off road. Just my tuppenceworth. Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clbarclay Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 An interesting comment I've heard a from people that fitten X-springs is the effect of relativerly long soft springs on side slopes where they caused much more body roll, to the extent that they had removed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 OK - I'm biased - so take what I have to say with a pinch of salt! If you want to increase the travel in the system, either with Longer springs, softer springs, long soft springs (like MaxTraction) or even X-Springs, you will get more body roll! It's a fact of life and the only way to reduce it is with some kind of anti-roll device. The OE springs are designed such that you have a reasonable compromise between travel, comfort and not bottoming out when you go over a bump. If you fit long springs, in order to sit at the same height they must be softer. If they are softer, the travel you get in response to a bump increases. As soon as your suspension bottoms out, it is not doing much and traction will suffer (regardless of how many lockers and Simex you throw at it!). As a rule of thumb, when you go over a bump (for on road and off road apart from racing), the weight on a given spring will multiply by 1.5. It should only just touch the bump stop at this. For a stock LR this rule works pretty well. The springs on mine compress by 5" with the weight of the vehicle and there is a further 3" of movement before they hit the bump stops. If you say wanted the spring to stay located for a further 5" of travel - giving you 13" in total (not unreasonable) you would need a spring which compresses 10" with the weight of the vehicle and a further 5" on bump. 5" on the bump stops is about a 2" lift - which works OK Lets say you want 30" of travel in total (750mm) - That's 20" compression with the vehicle weight and another 10" on the bump stops. Therefore, to give you reasonable bump response, you need a 7" lift (that will lean on corners!). If you do not have the 7" lift - which you can only do by making the spring softer - you will hit the bump stops and reduce the amount of traction available. The 'grown-up' way to solve this is to use dual rate springs. The first half of your travel is on long soft springs and as the suspension is compressed and you are running out of travel in the soft part of the spring - the stiffer spring comes in to play. That decelerates the compression rapidly in the last few inches of travel. OK,you can buy dual rate springs where the coil density changes along it's length. Trouble is, the maximum difference you can achieve between the two rates is quite small (20% is a figure I've heard). Undoubtedly this helps - but not enough for really long travel. In the example above, it is still a 5.5" lift The most common solution you see to this problem is with coil-overs where they use two completely separate springs end to end. With two different wire diameters in the springs, you can achieve hugely different rates easily. With this kind of setup you could easily have a vehicle which sits at stock height with the soft springs fully compressed and the hard springs partially compressed - but still has 30" of travel. This is close to how the X-Springs work. There is a soft (inner) spring which is fully compressed most of the time and plays no part in the suspension. You normally run on your original outer spring. When you start to run out of extension in the outer spring, the inner spring starts to have a greater and greater effect. They do not give you 30" of sprung travel - closer to 21" (12" over standard). However, even 21" travel shocks are not easy to come by without a second mortgage - so even if you can achieve 30" travel on the springs - you'll probably only be using the first 15" or so of it. At the end of the day, there are several ways to skin this particular cat. Coil overs are a good option - but not for everyone. Max Traction springs have their merits - and so do X-Springs. They all have pitfalls too and everyone just has to weigh them up and decide. Si References (if you're interested in suspension technology): Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams ISBN 1-55788-055-7 Engineer to win (Race car dynamics) ISBN 0-87938-186-8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams ISBN 1-55788-055-7 Didn't he play trumpet with the Tijuana Brass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_LLAMA4x4 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Offroad or onroad. Hard springs or soft springs. Lots of damping or soft damping. Body roll or lack of articulation. Compromise is the art of good living Pick a budget / aim / spec that is realistic to you and do it. F1 cars are faster than tractors. Lorries hold more stuff than a small van, but do less to the gallon and cost more to buy. I know I seem to have wittering on about compromise in suspension systems every post I've made for the last 2 weeks but that is because it is a simple and necessary, even if inwanted fact of any suspension setup. Even the F1 cars mentioned above have to compromise tyre wear with road holding. Like we have to put up with miserable handling to make a trialler beetter. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Didn't he play trumpet with the Tijuana Brass? No that was Herb Alpert. Herb Adams has been famous in Melbourne for many years for his steak and kidney pies. Didn't know he branched out into the suspension business.Hmm! be nice to have a hot pie that bounced when dropped instead of splattering all over the floor. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest weeble Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 There is a Red 90 that regularly competes in adventures 4x4 challange events that is fitted with Max traction suspension and I have to say it seems to work very well. How it compares in cost to the X engineering system ive no idea but both systems seem to work very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 An interesting comment I've heard a from people that fitten X-springs is the effect of relativerly long soft springs on side slopes where they caused much more body roll, to the extent that they had removed them. I've not noticed this at all. I've driven my 90 on slide slopes with soft red/whites and my current set up of LR springs rated at 225lbs/" with X-springs. There was significantly more roll on side slopes with the red/whites as the softer spring would compress more on the downward side. I have never noticed the normal springs dislocate on a straight side slope and let the X-spring take over. I've also not noticed any extra roll or even a push when you drop a single front wheel in a deep ditch enough to completely lift the opposite rear corner. As Si says, no system is perfect, but for me X-springs mean you get the travel without having to fit long soft springs. What this means to me is good articulation without lots of lift and with good handling from the springs on road. As for the alternative of letting the springs dislocate I've certainly noticed the benefit of extra traction in cross axles etc since fitting the X-springs. Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I've not noticed this at all. I've driven my 90 on slide slopes with soft red/whites and my current set up of LR springs rated at 225lbs/" with X-springs. There was significantly more roll on side slopes with the red/whites as the softer spring would compress more on the downward side. I have never noticed the normal springs dislocate on a straight side slope and let the X-spring take over.Cheers Steve I could be wrong, but if the uphill side springs started to dislocate on a straight side slope, that means that the body/ chassis unit has gone beyond the point of balance and is no longer applying any downforce to the upper springs and wheels.So aside from the weight of half the axle assemblies holding it down, that truck is seriosly thinking of toppling over. As I mentioned on another forum, a couple of hours spent with a forklift, a safety strap, a couple of dislocation limiting straps, aset of hard springs and a set of softs prings etc, should once and for all provide some quantifyable data to determin whether dislocation is a health hazard or not. Right who's up for it? I'll provide the venue, you lot provide all the other stuff. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I could be wrong, but if the uphill side springs started to dislocate on a straight side slope, that means that the body/ chassis unit has gone beyond the point of balance and is no longer applying any downforce to the upper springs and wheels.So aside from the weight of half the axle assemblies holding it down, that truck is seriosly thinking of toppling over.As I mentioned on another forum, a couple of hours spent with a forklift, a safety strap, a couple of dislocation limiting straps, aset of hard springs and a set of softs prings etc, should once and for all provide some quantifyable data to determin whether dislocation is a health hazard or not. Right who's up for it? I'll provide the venue, you lot provide all the other stuff. Bill. 10538 miles, 20mpg and £1.08 a litre = approx £2600 in fuel each way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 10538 miles, 20mpg and £1.08 a litre = approx £2600 in fuel each way Ok you drive a hard bargain Will. I'll lay on a couple of slabs of the near frozen possum pee we call beer as well . Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 It can't be beyond the forum to find someone with a venue and a forklift to try this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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