m&mv80 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 This is my first post so first off hi to everyone, I've been browsing the forum for ages and thought it was about time to join in, so here goes, I have a landrover 90 v8 and fitted a milemarker winch about a year ago running on a dedicated zf 74 pump, this works fine but was extremely slow as im sure most of you are aware. Basically I have now fitted a pto pump on the transfer box running through a manual spool valve and ocv then to the motor on the winch, I have just finished the plumbing tonight and tried it for the first time, Well it has certainly sped things up a bit, but I was suprised to see what pressure the system was running at off load, In 4th gear at about 1200rpm the guage was showing around 1100psi, is this correct?? It seems very high to me but im not sure if the ocv would cause this or if I need to adjust anything to reduce this off load pressure, I was hoping that the guage was going to give me some idea of load when using the winch in anger but if its running that high off load then its not going to tell me very much at all, also whats the best way of setting the relief valve?. I have heard by locking the winch mechanicaly by selecting both gears together you can bend something??, is this true and should i just rig up between to big trees or is it ok to do this? I know a few of you guys on here are pretty clued up on hydro set ups so im hoping I'll get some answers, I'm an engineer myself but have never been involved in hydraulics so im on a bit of a learning curve here, thanks in advance for your replys, Cheers Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 No it doesn't sound right 1st off welcome 2nd Please outline where you have pipes to and from what, and where you have fitted the gauge Also what size pipework are you using on all pipes - Either via carefull explaination of maybe a drawing and post up Re Setting PRV there are ways and means but 1st lets ensure everything is plumbed up correctly ? Sure we can help Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Yes, it should be a lot less than that under no load.................. What size pipes do you have form tank to pump ............ pump to spool......... spool to OCV ............. OCV to motor ? Ideally these pipes need to be 3/4 for tank to pump ................ and 1/2 for the rest. If your OCV is real close to the motor then you vcan get away with a very short section of 3/8................ What Spool are you using and what is the max flow rate ? ................ minimum should be a P40............but P60 is better It is important that the OCV is connected the right way round ........................I assume its a 4 port device........... You can set the PRV by locking the winch, but make sure you are quick ................ the only problem I have ever seen is a cracked motor casing due to the pressure being too high............................ Also................. how free is your winch ? .............. the factory grease trends to go a bit thick after a while ................. I have see these where it is difficult to free spool unless you are Geoff Capes.........................I strip my g/box annually and re grease with boat trailer waterproof grease .................. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 thanks guys, ok so i have inch hose going from tank to pump then half inch hose from pump to spool valve, but now this is where i think the problem lies, i have a 3/8 spool valve (45lpm) and 3/8 hose from spool to ocv then ocv to motor, im guessing i need to upgrade this to 1/2 inch hose and a 1/2 inch spool valve, can you confirm this? i know i have the hoses on the correct way now because i didnt to start with, the other problem is that i dont know the output (lpm) of the pump although i believe it to be of a landrover mounted cherrypicker (i think its a superwinch pto), oh well more money to spend i guess, thanks again for your replys and any more info greatly recieved ps, to hybrid from hell, i believe it was you i spoke to at slab common on the shire play day about your (very nice) winch install on your 90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 thanks guys, ok so i have inch hose going from tank to pump then half inch hose from pump to spool valve, but now this is where i think the problem lies, i have a 3/8 spool valve (45lpm) and 3/8 hose from spool to ocv then ocv to motor, im guessing i need to upgrade this to 1/2 inch hose and a 1/2 inch spool valve, can you confirm this? i know i have the hoses on the correct way now because i didnt to start with, the other problem is that i dont know the output (lpm) of the pump although i believe it to be of a landrover mounted cherrypicker (i think its a superwinch pto), oh well more money to spend i guess, thanks again for your replys and any more info greatly recievedps, to hybrid from hell, i believe it was you i spoke to at slab common on the shire play day about your (very nice) winch install on your 90 AH HA! Ok I would say 3/4 from tank to pump is the absolute minimum for a high flow unit, 1" would be better which I think is what mine is or 1.25" ? 1/2" from pump to spool is OK 3/8th spool valve will not help, the ports will be smaller and cause a pressure circuit jump as the fluid is squeezing in and out and a 1/2 inch spool valve better ?.... yes ! 3/8 hose from spool to ocv then ocv to motor Noooooooooo need 1/2" to match system i dont know the output (lpm) of the pump although i believe it to be of a landrover mounted cherrypicker (i think its a superwinch pto), - it should have number on it somewhere go hunty time and post up, I sadly have a load of data of versions and LPM etc I was a tad "Busy" at slab have a vague memory of it only, but that could also be my brain / memory Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 what OCV are you using ? The pressure drop through the spool should be stated in the manufacturers blurb ................. I use a P40 which is 1/2 feed in/ return out and 3/8 in/out/ off the spool (but I use 1/2 pipe)............. the pressure drop is 3 bar when fed with 250bar and flowing at 40L/min....... P40d.pdf I'm guessing that either the OCV is set wrong ................ or the pump is way too large and flowing much more than your system can cope with........... Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 what OCV are you using ?The pressure drop through the spool should be stated in the manufacturers blurb ................. I use a P40 which is 1/2 feed in/ return out and 3/8 in/out/ off the spool (but I use 1/2 pipe)............. the pressure drop is 3 bar when fed with 250bar and flowing at 40L/min....... P40d.pdf I'm guessing that either the OCV is set wrong ................ or the pump is way too large and flowing much more than your system can cope with........... Ian ian, first off thanks for your help, im using an ocv supplied by alfred murray 4x4 winches but i wasnt supplied any instructions, it just had top/front written on it by one of the ports, he said to plumb this port to the top/front port on the motor depending on what way the motor is fitted, mine has the ports facing the rad so i connected the identified port on the ocv to the top port on the motor, i believe this to be correct. again the spool valve came with no instructions so i cant give you the pressure drop, i bought it from harrier fluid power and was told it had a flow rate of 45lpm, all 4 ports are 3/8, sorry im not being much help here. you say the ocv may be set wrong, how do i adjust it?? im going to get the numbers off the pump and hopefully hybrid from hell may have some data about the flow rates etc so we might know some more then. i think a 1/2 inch spool valve and hoses is the way to go here, anyone know a cheap supplier of spool valves? also just to check, are the ports on the motor 1/2 inch bsp?? from memory the milemarker solonoid valve block wasnt a bsp thread so maybe the motor isnt either? thanks again for your help martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 OK Martin, you have the same OCV as me ……..it should be pre adjusted OK .......... but if connect wrong will give all sorts of issues. Top front ………….. the two ports on that side go to the motor ………. IIRC they are closer together than the two on the other side….. The other two are Flow & Return …….. Flow at the top and return at the bottom…… The adjuster ‘t!t’ cap should be at the top, when described as above……….. Look at the picture of my install here …..http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=6087 Once connected correctly, there should be about 100 psi at no load on winch ‘in’ ………… and about 500 psi on no load winch ‘out’ The motor is a JIC thread (Yankee).............. IIRC 9/16 Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted February 9, 2008 Author Share Posted February 9, 2008 AH HA!Ok I would say 3/4 from tank to pump is the absolute minimum for a high flow unit, 1" would be better which I think is what mine is or 1.25" ? 1/2" from pump to spool is OK 3/8th spool valve will not help, the ports will be smaller and cause a pressure circuit jump as the fluid is squeezing in and out and a 1/2 inch spool valve better ?.... yes ! 3/8 hose from spool to ocv then ocv to motor Noooooooooo need 1/2" to match system i dont know the output (lpm) of the pump although i believe it to be of a landrover mounted cherrypicker (i think its a superwinch pto), - it should have number on it somewhere go hunty time and post up, I sadly have a load of data of versions and LPM etc I was a tad "Busy" at slab have a vague memory of it only, but that could also be my brain / memory Nige it should have number on it somewhere go hunty time and post up, I sadly have a load of data of versions and LPM etc just been to have a look and the only details i can see are on the back plate of the pump, it says: marzocchi bologna cast into it and then stamped on it has 394 and 2 d 40AC (i think, they are not stamped very clearly) are these the numbers?? ive just tried google and didnt get very far apart from the marzocchi usa site but the numbers dont seem to mean anything, hopefully you may know different. cheers martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 right, ive done a bit more digging on google tonight and it seems that a 2 D 40 marzocchi pump is about 27 lpm, although i stand to be corrected, one thing i dont understand though is why a 3/8 45 lpm valve block is not enough, im not disagreeing that i need a 1/2 inch spool valve and im def going to change to one with 1/2 inch hoses and 70 lpm, but im just curious as to why. thanks for all your help and info so far. bull bar cowboy: thats a great write up and install you have, mine is actually quite similar so its interesting to see how you have done it, thanks again guys regards martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorak_Stan Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 it should have number on it somewhere go hunty time and post up, I sadly have a load of data of versions and LPM etc just been to have a look and the only details i can see are on the back plate of the pump, it says: marzocchi bologna cast into it and then stamped on it has 394 and 2 d 40AC (i think, they are not stamped very clearly) are these the numbers?? ive just tried google and didnt get very far apart from the marzocchi usa site but the numbers dont seem to mean anything, hopefully you may know different. cheers martin According to the Superwinch PTO Manual the Marzocchi Pump is a 27.9 CC/Rev (which is nice & High) the Peak Delivery Pressure is 150 Bar (@ 1500 RPM) and the system will give a nominal flow of 32 Litres / Min @ 1500 RPM. Hope That Helps Lyndon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 Yes, I think Lyndon has given you the answer .............. the pump is 27L/min @1000 rpm, however your winch motor will take a peak max flow of 75L/min I am not sure what the max rpm of your pump is ? that figure is important in determining the max flow available. I am using a capproni 25cc pump that has a max rpm of 2500............therefore my max flow is 62.5L/min ........... Interestingly I am currently using a P40 spool (40L/min) and the quoted pressure drop @ 50L/min is 4bar ........... so not too bad, however, I will change this to a P60 in the near future.............. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 thanks chaps, looks like i was close with my figures then, ive now fitted 1/2 inch pipe work all the way through and a half inch spool with a flow rate of 75 liters a min, i couldnt find any info on the pressure drop fot it though, TO LYNDON, i wonder if your info gives the max rpm for the pump that i have, if so i would be very interested to know, thanks again thanks for all your replys and info it been very very helpfull, im off out tomorow to give it a try so will let you know how i get on, martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share Posted March 10, 2008 well what can i say, i went out yesterday and used the setup for the first time and its unbelievable how much difference it has made, i am very pleased with the result and it has been well worth all the effort, i have set the prv to 1800psi for now to keep well within limits and will see how it performs over a few outings, the only real problem i had was oil coming out of the tank breather when going up a rather steep slope so will have to extend the breather, thanks again for all your help and advice and im sure it wont be long before i need it again cheers martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorak_Stan Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 thanks chaps, looks like i was close with my figures then, ive now fitted 1/2 inch pipe work all the way through and a half inch spool with a flow rate of 75 liters a min, i couldnt find any info on the pressure drop fot it though, TO LYNDON, i wonder if your info gives the max rpm for the pump that i have, if so i would be very interested to know, thanks again thanks for all your replys and info it been very very helpfull, im off out tomorow to give it a try so will let you know how i get on, martin Martin, Checked The Manual and it doesn't give a physical RPM for the Pump (or PTO) however there is a Flow / RPM Graph that Ends @ 3500RPM and it shows that the flow rate "Goes Flat" @ 3000RPM and @ that stage it shows it giving 62 L/Min So as the Gearbox has a 1:1 Ratio in 4th I suppose that means there is no point in running @ over 3500RPM in Fourth or 2490RPM in Fifth if it's a TDI with a .83:1 Ratio) It seems the Marzocchi is the best pump for flow with a std pressure motor (as it only goes to 150bar). Hope That Helps a little Lyndon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 thanks very much for that lyndon, very helpfull indeed, its actually on a v8 but 4th is still 1:1 so i used this as it makes it easier to know what speed the pump is running at a quick glance of the tacho, the only thing im not sure about now and this is slightly changing the subject but how do i drive assist? i know i shouldnt need to most of the time but if i need to just turn the wheels to help them climb over an obstacle then im not sure how its going to work, i know some people say you can and some say you cant drive assist but im struggling to figure it out, here is what im thinking but hopefully you will be able to put me straight, to drive assist i need to be in first gear to get the wheel turning as slow as poss but now the winch is turning extremely slowly and if i use 4th to get the winch speed up then the wheels will be turning to fast and by slipping the clutch this will slow the pump as well so no benefit there either, any suggestions? thanks martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Drive assist is virtually impossible on a PTO Driven Winch The Winch and Wheels are both driven by what gear you are in, the ratio changes as you change gear but the prob of the wheels turning vastly faster than the winch remains, if you are HORRIBLY stuck, then you can have the wheels driven and turning but stuck, as such the winch keeps pulling the tight rope, ...........but any grip and the rope will drop ..............and the prob reoccurs. As with all winches there is a compromise somewhere - with PTOs its drive assist - however drive assist is either to position your truck (say competition) or to help a winch which isn't pulling enough - and hence its more to assist the recovery - with a PTO driven hydraulic you'll find the winch hugely powerfull .....and it will just drag the LR out To actually 'drive assist' a PTO system means being highly tuned in to what's going on, and engeging and disengageing the Drive to the wheels a huge amount of times, .................. ...and even then it doesn't really work well Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 thanks for that nige, thats what i was trying to say basically i dont see how its possible but thought i had heard it was, you have just clarified what i already thought, i think it would have been helpfull to be able to sometimes, maybe not when stuck as such but say like trying to get the wheels to drive up a bank or over a log or something where just winching is pulling you into an obstacle rather than over it, but im sure i'll manage without, thanks again martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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