Series Discs

[Tonk]

this is my caliper plate

i used 110 long pad calipers

[Gremlin]

Sorry gremlin, I feel a bit thick here. (Because I am, I'm sure)

But what part of the hub have you machined off to allow the disk to be fitted.

The back side where the webbing is and the diameter where the studs are.

Grem

[ltwt1981]

Mine is very similar to Tonks and Jon Whites, we all used different calipers if I remember correctly but in essense all are the same.

Tonks pics above show the details.

I spent some time in the workshop playing with hubs and calipers first, then mocked it all up on the bench.

Mine is all home made i.e. caliper brackets and all machining.

I have a spare set of new discas as well, not been machined at all, about £30 on e-bay as I remember if anyone wants them.

[Tonk]

another conversion i made up using wilwood calipers

[ltwt1981]

Gremlin

I had to change the servo to a 90 one to ease the pressure needed, as far as I know so did Tonk and Jon.

I changed the whole pedal box on mine, the pedal is a bit shorter than a 90 one as I remember.

I also used a 90 master cylinder as it was attached to the pedal box.

[Tonk]

i do run a 90 pedal box, servo and master.

the pedal arm is longer than series by about 1/2 inch

[Gremlin]

Gremlin

I had to change the servo to a 90 one to ease the pressure needed, as far as I know so did Tonk and Jon.

I changed the whole pedal box on mine, the pedal is a bit shorter than a 90 one as I remember.

I also used a 90 master cylinder as it was attached to the pedal box.

I still run the series master (single) and pedal, but i have big lockheed a remote servo.

Grem

[Gazzar]

I've been following this topic with great interest. I'm keen to fit disks to my rebuild, as flood resistant brakes are a necessity where I live.

Have I got this right?

If I was to start from scratch (1974 109 front axle) then the key heavy (for a DIY person) pieces of engineering are

1) Capilar attachment bracket

and

2) Attaching the disk to the back of the hub.

If I had the right disk in terms of offset then the caliper attachment bracket could be a flat piece of, say, 8mm steel. This doesn't have to be very high precision, as once it holds the calipers in the right place that's it. So I could do this myself.

How do I attach the disk to the hub?

Obviously the hub has to be drilled and tapped, but is this a precision engineering outfit only job? Disk balance at 60 mph being a serious consideration.

Tonk, which disks did you use?

Sorry for the detail of the post but I want to take advantage of the work that has already been done and not reinvent the wheel (sorry - bad pun).

G.

[Gremlin]

Point 1 - yes, point 2 - yes

The rest is a choice, discs and calipers, tonk can answer better as his brackets are simpler so they might suit your quest better. What i can tell you from my experiance is that a flat bracket will work with a lower hat area for the disc and smaller calipers or sliding calipers, using rover calipers will need 1" spacers at the hub/wheel.

Grem

[Tonk]

i shown 2 different conversions, one uses wilwood calipers, the other is 110 long pad calipers.

both use the same disc but different mounting brackets.

caliper mounting brackets are made from 10mm thick steel, they need drilling and tapping for attaching the caliper, so thicker is better.

disc used was a toyota one cos it has less offset than landrover discs.

[Gazzar]

Tonk,

That confirms my understanding, thank you.

So, to use a 10mm flat steel caliper mounting bracket the Toyota disks and the LR 110 "long pad" calipers are a viable route.

Which Toyota disks? Makes it easier to order.

And is the machining of the hub to take the disks a job for a lathe? I mean to ensure that the holes are drilled at the same diamater/offset relative to the axis (sorry I just can't think of the right terms today - the letters PCD wanders about my mind as I type for some reason).

I enquire as I know from experience that to find the right engineering workshop for any one off job requires a knowledge of the work to be done.

It looks like converting to disk brakes without paying several hundred euro on parts you alreeady have is achievable without too much headscratching, thanks to the pioneering work of the members of this forum.

Well done - gets my vote for services to the series award.

G.

[Jon White]

I hate to say it, but if you're asking those sorts of questions, then i would seriously question your abiliites to make your own system. At the end of the day brakes are a safety critical part, so if you are in any way doubting your abilities then do not attempt to make something yourself. Buy one of the commercially available kits.

Tonk and i developed the kit using wilwood calipers together years ago, and it works well. But for the very reasons or safety, and potentially personal liability, i for one will categorically not tell anyone else how to do it. There are more than enough clues that have been given in the above thread to allow you to easily work out how to do it, and what parts to use for yourself. However if you decide to build your own, and you have a serious accident as a result of something you have, or have not done, then I for one do not want to be liable.

There is a fair amount of machining involved in making this system work. Do not for one minute think that its a simple bolt on job, as it is not. The hub needs machining, the disk needs machining, the caliper mounting needs machining etc etc, but you also need to consider the rear brakes to ensure that you have a correct brake bias. You need to consider the size of servo you have and which master cylinder you have. All these need to be taken into account!

i dont mean to be a killjoy, but this is call purely on the grounds of safety and liability!

Jon

[Tonk]

i do second jon's comments.

but i will tell you that fitting a 110 long pad caliper in there is extremely close and needs modifying a fair bit.

the wilwood caliper will fit with no modifications and is plenty upto the job of stopping a landrover.

machining of the discs and back of the hubs is doable on a lathe, saying that it has to be spot on else you will end up with disc run out which will pulse through the pedal when you brake.

caliper mounting plates can be made using mill or laser cutter, whichever you have to hand

[Gazzar]

I agree with your comments on safety, and am fairly comfortable with building/ reconditioning brake systems, having built a few kit cars, rebuilt a Silver Shadow citroen brake system (uses a Moris Minor master cylinder to give the pedal "feel"!).

I had hoped, admittedly not with much expectation, that a solution that was witin the grasp of a competent home mechanic was possible, however I accept that it isn't likely.

Regarding the rest of the braking system I was expecting to keep the rear drums, and fit a dual circuit servo assisted brake pedal from either a late series, or a defender, whichever I can obtain in the right condition.

The appropriate valve would also be fitted. I'd probably use a later defender master cylinder as it would have the correct diamater front chamber for the smaller amount of fluid a brake calliper displaces compared to a wheel cylinder. I may not, as the larger series master cylinder front chamber would require less brake effort, making the vehicle spouse friendlier.

I do have access to sophisticated brake testing equipment in that the Landrover would be put through a recognised safety test prior to being used in anger. Thus I wasn't asking too many questions on these matters.

but

The difficulty I have is I don't have access to a good engineering shop locally, and thus to entrust components to an unfamiliar workshop would mean that I have to get the specification right and tight beforehand.

In addition I've not got the luxury of lots of LR Brake components kicking about to swap and change in order to optimise the arrangement. I'd have to go out and buy them on the offchance they'd fit. And there aren't that many LR bits around here. Toyota and Nissan are two a penny, but not LR.

Thus asking about which particular components someone else used sucessfully would save me a lot of time and money.

The calliper mounting bracket is potentially the most complex engineering job, if it has to made so that the calipermounts are offset from its mount. If it doesn't have to be then it is a much simpler engineering job. Truing the hub and the disk are simpler jobs, as is tapping the holes.

Finally, if I don't ask questions, then how else can I get answers?

G.

[bushwhacker]

BIG THANKS to the pioneers out there.

I have watched this topic with great interest as I drive a series and know they have poor brakes after off roading. Pre-empting your braking on the way home is no fun.

These are mods you have made to your vehichles, and quite rightly point out YOU DO NOT ADVISE any one to do themselves.

I could say I have painted my rover dimpsy brown and what I painted it with and where but that does not mean everyone should do that. You guys are just telling others what you have done.

We would,nt stick our hand in the fire just because someone said to, would we????????????

Sorry for the slight rant.

[Gazzar]

I quite agree. My landrover, my responsibility, good and bad.

Doesn't stop me asking for advice, or details, I would have thought.

Or giving advice to others, either.

[Jon White]

The one thing that you have to bear in mind is that this a public forum.

Anyone can read this, anyone can pick up the information.

I'll tell people how to do most things, but not something thats safety related.

One thing i will, and have posted in the past is how to bolt on rear disks to a series axle. Search back through my previous postings and you'll see that a rear conversion is more or less a nuts and bolts job. Its the front end thats tricky to make.

Jon

[Gazzar]

Those wilwood calipers look fantastic. Almost too nice for a landrover, still, if they do the job....

Which Toyota were those discs fitted to? I might get a pair and see how the setup would look.

Cheers

G.

[bushwhacker]

I agree it is a public forum. Its a good forum if your in to Land Rovers.

There is alot more imformation out there and not Land Rover orientated.

But by enlarge the public do not act on it, just as well too!!!!!!!

I do not mind asking for advise and when it is recieved its entirely up to me if I act on it.

Again I would like to thank you guys who have been their and done it and can offer some advise.

This is my final post on this (no point in beating a dead horse to death).

[ltwt1981]

I second both Jon and Tonks comments, but I made mine in the shed with a large pillar drill and a small lathe.

Its not rocket science but you do need to be careful.

I used a pointer to centre the discs on the hubs and to check run out, my final solution used discovery rear calipers and worked well.

You do need to uprate the servo and I wouldn't have done it without a dual master cylinder.

I didn't do the rears but was only runnind a 2.25 petrol so power wasn't a problem.

Its doable with care and time without a lot of expensive engineering equipment, but it would make it easier and quicker.

I reckon I spent a couple of weeks in trying it all out and making it then a couple of days in fitting and fettling.

[Gazzar]

ltwt1981

Do you mind if I ask you which discs you used? I'd appreciate it if you would tell me.

Cheers.

G.

[NRS91]

Not personally attacking people. but bear in mind this is then SVA and Q plate teritory, as the vehicle would no longer retain original type chassis and/or the original chassis has been substancially modified.

the dvla system runs a points system for modified vehicles

if you modify a vehicle u need to retain 8 points to retain the reg

here are the points:

Chassis: 5

Gearbox: 2

Axles: 2

Suspension: 2

Steering: 2

Engine: 1

to retain the reg you could change everithing but the engine, chassis and one other component... i would think the suspension mounts are classed in the suspension section really because although your changing a part of the chassis it is only a bracket or eight and i cant really see how ou could change any of the other components without chassis bracket mods

Great informative post

good job well done

keep it up

i think we need one on coverting to rr axles...well i know i do haha

[Gazzar]

Ah, yes, I remember that from my Kit car days - before the SVA.

Where I am living at the moment rules are different.

The chassis determines the vehicle. Change the chassis and you change the age and plate. So if you rechassis your 1959 swb with a new chassis it becomes a 2008 (or whatever), that is, if you tell them.

They couldn't give a damn what else you do - except if you change the engine size to a bigger engine you pay more road tax. If you tell them.

Of course you have to do a safety test every now and then, and also your insurance company must know of all changes, but other than that you can do what you like.

Even the safety test is no longer required after 30 years (I actually find this frightening) but most insurance companies would insist on an engineer/garage report before gining cover.

Actually there are moves afot to "Harmonise" the UK rules - so that no non-manufaturer mods are allowed.

<>Soap box time<>

Lobby your MP and MEP about this - make it a big issue, otherwise you'll lose the right to build your own vehicle the way you like it. Quick email should do it, or perhaps a petition online?

<>/ Soap box over <>/

G.

[missingsid]

Ah, yes, I remember that from my Kit car days - before the SVA.

Where I am living at the moment rules are different.

The chassis determines the vehicle. Change the chassis and you change the age and plate. So if you rechassis your 1959 swb with a new chassis it becomes a 2008 (or whatever), that is, if you tell them.

They couldn't give a damn what else you do - except if you change the engine size to a bigger engine you pay more road tax. If you tell them.

Of course you have to do a safety test every now and then, and also your insurance company must know of all changes, but other than that you can do what you like.

Even the safety test is no longer required after 30 years (I actually find this frightening) but most insurance companies would insist on an engineer/garage report before gining cover.

Actually there are moves afot to "Harmonise" the UK rules - so that no non-manufaturer mods are allowed.

<>Soap box time<>

Lobby your MP and MEP about this - make it a big issue, otherwise you'll lose the right to build your own vehicle the way you like it. Quick email should do it, or perhaps a petition online?

<>/ Soap box over <>/

G.

Sorry,

UK I believe if you change the chassis for a brand new one of the same type then you retain reg.

Second hand chassis Q reg.

Alter the suspension mounts on the chassis (coiler) Q reg.

There are plenty of SVA threads in this subject on the forum if you want to find out.

Marc.

[Gazzar]

Ah, Marc, you are right, but I don't live in the UK.

My point is that you guys in the UK have some very flexible rules at the moment - and unless you continue to lobby for those rules to be preserved they will be taken away.

As I understand it the UK Govt are actively considering implementing an EU directive that will take these rules away. It will get to the stage where the major manufacurers have the whole thing wrapped up.

Amongst the current proposals is a requirement that all new vehicles will have to have ABS certified by the mannufacturer.

So - no more road legal one offs, for starters. No more kit cars.

Next: no new chassis modifications unless certified by manufaturer.

Also: no tyres that were not originally specified by the manufacturer.

Whats next? All vehicles over 30 years to be restricted to 500 km per annum? Or scrapped unless of special historical interest?

Variations of these rules are alreay in place in some parts of the world.

<theatrical voice> BE Warned /<>end voice.

G.