200Di conversion in a Series

[laroguz]

Hi there,

Who did the 200Di conversion as described on http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di.htm and what are the results?

Kind regards

[FridgeFreezer]

You mean remove the turbo? Seems like a rather daft idea to me - plenty of people have put normal 200TDi's into Series, use the search button.

[laroguz]

Maybe, but first of all I'm from Holland so I'm talking about LHD cars. So there is always the conflict with the turbo and the LHD steeringcolom wich is a really complicated job. Second, it is a well known fact that torque and horsepower of a 200TDI are a bit high for the Series drivetrain. So, if you want to keep the original drivetrain and just put in a better engine, this would be a great idea.

My biggest question is, if there will be any problems with the compression ratio if the turbo is removed, as this is normally a bit lower on a turbo engine. So that's why I put the question here, if there are people who know this conversion and have some experience with it.

Kind regards

[David Sparkes]

http://www.british4x4.nl/TheSpecialist/engine.htm shows the compression ratio for several engines. The 200 / 300 is given as 19.5:1, slightly lower than the 2.5's which preceeded it (21:1), but compression ratio clearly isn't the be all and end all of diesel engine performance. Injector pressure and nozzle design being two other factors, combustion chamber design being a third.

Perhaps a better idea is to look at the boost pressure normally used, which I think was 9 to 12 psi (.6 to .8 bar). I'd judge this is not a high pressure, so the mechanical compression ratio wouldn't have been greatly compromised to accomadate the extra filling from the boost.

Mostly Conjecture.

In the end you have accept what you are given, unless you are going to be innovative and look at decking the block, skimming the head, etc.

As you are asking for the experience of others it doesn't seem as though you are inclined to the bleeding edge of research :-))

I see Glencoyne says fuel consumption is around 35 mpg in normal use, dipping slightly below 30 when towing. Have you found other people quoting numbers that either support this, or challenge it?

What is your take / answer to the points raised re Gearing and noise control?

HTH

[Les Henson]

If you connect a 200TDi engine to a series transmission, then the extra BHP will wreck it sooner or later. Series 2.25 engines are 62BHP and a 200TDi is 111BHP, so you are almost doubling the load on the transmission.

A non-turbo 200TDi will still be an improvement on what you currently have, but with some fab work and a bit of thought - you can fit an intercooler.

Les.

[rjblank]

Hi there,

Who did the 200Di conversion as described on http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di.htm and what are the results?

Kind regards

Richard, at Glencoyne, is the one who did the conversion you speak of. He has done quite a few of the 200DI conversions. I've seen four or five of them now. They actually work out quite well. He had an 88 he drove for quite a while and only parted with it for a bigger 109 vehicle. The only "downside" is the increased noise and occasionally one will need the fuel delivery optimized. The lack of performance would not be noticed when it had the turbo, since the turbo made up for it. Richard can provide all the details. He says that it has all the power of a 2.25 petrol, but with better mileage.

I have a series 3 that I am converting to a 200. I am taking a slightly different approach to the install. Instead of using the factory series engine mounts, I am using the Disco mounts. The 200's on series engine mounts create too much vibration at idle for my liking... I'll have the pics posted soon. At this point, I have an empty engine bay and a mountless frame. Next weekend will see the engine installed and working on the electrics and exhaust.

[FridgeFreezer]

Are you sure 111bhp destroys drivetrains? Mine lasted long enough (about 5 years I think) behind a 3.9 V8 which has a twitch more than 111bhp. Mind you, I was cheating by employing mechanical sympathy

I still think removing a perfectly serviceable turbo from an engine is daft, it's bad enough you're fitting a diesel in the first place without making it any slower

[muddymanok]

Hi all, I have a 200Tdi in my series 88" and yess it does wreck the drive train (only whilst driving on serious lanes though) I have broke the front half shaft once and the rear twice, now I,ve modified and fitted a Salisbury rear axle and things are fine for now. the reason a 200Tdi would wreck the drive train and not the more powerfull V8 is all to do with the Turbo boost, on a V8 the power delivery is nice and smooth from the second you put your footdown, however on a turbo you have to wait for the pressure to build and then the power is released all at once, breaking the weakest parts in turn, hope this makes sense ? I had my engine mounts made up, but I'm interestd to know if the disco mounts stop the vibes as mine is terrible, so much so that I've had to increase the idle speed.

thanks,

Nick.

[david1701]

not to sound daft, but whats mechanical sympathy?

[FridgeFreezer]

whats mechanical sympathy?

Not driving like a w*nker and wondering why you break things Don't worry - it's banned in UK competitions anyway

[rjblank]

Hi all, I have a 200Tdi in my series 88" and yess it does wreck the drive train (only whilst driving on serious lanes though) I have broke the front half shaft once and the rear twice, now I,ve modified and fitted a Salisbury rear axle and things are fine for now. the reason a 200Tdi would wreck the drive train and not the more powerfull V8 is all to do with the Turbo boost, on a V8 the power delivery is nice and smooth from the second you put your footdown, however on a turbo you have to wait for the pressure to build and then the power is released all at once, breaking the weakest parts in turn, hope this makes sense ? I had my engine mounts made up, but I'm interestd to know if the disco mounts stop the vibes as mine is terrible, so much so that I've had to increase the idle speed.

thanks,

Nick.

I can let you know how well the Disco mounts work limiting the vibes in about 10 days, when mine is running. I'll send pics. IT looks like a pretty straight forward operation... and after removing the factory series mounts, I think the Disco mounts will be easier to install. I've been studing how to do the conversion for about 6 months. Just now getting to turning a wrench to it. I was going to use RR 3.54 gears, but decided to do a high range txfer box instead. Bought a small oil cooler to install where the horn used to reside, and the intercooler will fit on the other side of the rad support, just in front of the radiator.

How did you sort out the exhaust? Steve Parker pipe? I am looking to come outside the frame, below the passenger floor with the exhaust.

[jimfoo]

A friend of mine is putting a Disco 200TDI in his LHD 88". He is using a Scout II(Saganaw I think) PS box mounted on the frame rail to get the steering around the turbo. Power doesn't break things, using it inappropriately does. It's all in your foot. Don't like the lag, get a different turbo. A D-90 manifold will also change the turbo's location.

[muddymanok]

I used the standard Disco exhaust, the engine now sits slightly off line as you look at it in the engine bay, this was because the down pipe caught on the chassis , it's not ideal but it works, I had the front section of the disco pipe welded to the rear section of a standard S3 exhaust by stepping down the bore.

I've also not used the intercooler, I have an oil cooler off a 2.5 mitsibishi shogun and the standard S3 rad, I also have a snorkel fitted which I've adapted to use as the air filter with the element mounted on the top.

Cheers, Nick.

[Black Wolf]

Heres another way, we did originally have the stock S3 front end on it but the engine was running hot (had an electric fan off a Saab on the rad because the thermostatic one for the 200 wouldn't fit) and the intercooler which we had under the left wing with a scoop to direct air onto it but like the oil cooler too it wasn't doing much cooling so we managed to acquire a disco cooling assembly and made her a new front end as you can see...our engine sat off to one side too so we could get the exhaust fitted but its a custom large bore stainless steel one anyway so i can't comment on and standard exhausts.

...and thats my first post out the way!

[rjblank]

Black Wolf, what kind of flares do you have there?

[rjblank]

The new mounts work great at limiting the vibrations and were well worth the effort. I'll be working with Glencone Engineering http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/ to come up with a bolt-in version of the chassis side of the engine mounts. It will still require removal of the series mounts from the chassis. More to follow soon.

[tuko]

A non-turbo 200TDi will still be an improvement on what you currently have, but with some fab work and a bit of thought - you can fit an intercooler.

Les.

Les,

you've got me thinking with that comment. What if you were using the standard Series 3 or Defender air filter housing, but plumbed it into the intercooler before it reached the intake manifold. The air is filtered, then cooled before entering the engine. Would there be any benefit to this? Or is it a waste of plumbing? (I'm talking non turbo configeration)

Todd.

[rjblank]

Les,

you've got me thinking with that comment. What if you were using the standard Series 3 or Defender air filter housing, but plumbed it into the intercooler before it reached the intake manifold. The air is filtered, then cooled before entering the engine. Would there be any benefit to this? Or is it a waste of plumbing? (I'm talking non turbo configeration)

Todd.

Todd,

That's an interesting thought, but I would think that the outside air that is being sucked in by the engine would be the same temp as the air flowing through the intercooler, so I don't think there would be much change in the temp of the air. The big reason for an intercooler on a turbo engine, is the turbo compresses the air, and the air gets hot from the compression. You may be better off installing a snorkle to duct in cleaner air from higher up... Just a thought.

[Les Henson]

I wouldn't use the series oil bath type filter. There's a pint of oil sitting in the bottom and the increased air flow or perhaps a roll over might cause it to get sucked into the engine, which would then go bang. I think a dry air filter system would be wiser - the later type paper element filters almost always get used. If you have the intercooler on one side of the engine and the filter on the other - there's going to be a lot of pipework to sort out as well. Keeping the air system components close together makes for a neater job.

I'm not sure, but the oil bath 'brillo pad' - type filter might restrict the air flow.

Les.

[seriebil.dk]

Hi rjblank

Pictures and maybe measures please, let us see how you have fitted the mounts, would be nice to reduce the wibes from the engine.

I have a 2,5 N/A in my 88" and the mounts are the same as the tdi engines, right ? so this should improve my ride too.

Regards Anders

www.seriebil.dk

[tuko]

Hej Anders,

Welcome to the forum.

With the strict laws in Denmark can you upgrade the vehicle with a 200Tdi? SBP might be a problem, but who knows they do have mood changes on the regular bases maybe I'll have no problems with the upgrade.

Cheers,

Todd.

[Daan]

Les,

you've got me thinking with that comment. What if you were using the standard Series 3 or Defender air filter housing, but plumbed it into the intercooler before it reached the intake manifold. The air is filtered, then cooled before entering the engine. Would there be any benefit to this? Or is it a waste of plumbing? (I'm talking non turbo configeration)

Todd.

There is no benefit in intercooling if you have no turbo. And to reply to an earlyer thread about removing a turbo from a tdi; that would make it les powerfull than a n/a diesel, because of the lower compression ratio.

Daan

[The Hatt]

Les,

you've got me thinking with that comment. What if you were using the standard Series 3 or Defender air filter housing, but plumbed it into the intercooler before it reached the intake manifold. The air is filtered, then cooled before entering the engine. Would there be any benefit to this? Or is it a waste of plumbing? (I'm talking non turbo configeration)

Todd.

There would be no real world benefit in running an intercooler on a n/a setup. The intercooler lowers the air intake temps as compression via the turbo causes heat as a by-product.

In an n/a setup you should have much lower air intake temps anyway, even more so if ducted from outside the engine bay. But adding an intercooler would reduce air intake velocity way too much and likely result in less power overall.

As to running a TDI without a turbo, well I can understand that a LHD vehicle may cause issues but surly to fit a tdi and remove the turbo is a heck of a lot of work for next to no gain in performance and likely only a partial gain in mpg.

Wouldn't fitting either a 2.5 n/a diesel or petrol engine from an early 90/110 be easier. Also you could LPG the petrol engine or even a standard 2.25 petrol.

[tuko]

Hatt,

with my above comment, I was basically thinking out loud.

Myself, I'm in Sweden and LPG is not popular to the point where foreign travellers with LPG will be basically running on petrol the entire time in the country.

I have the 300Tdi sitting in the garage, it's going in the hybrid (RHD). The biggest problem I'll be encountering is the MOT, the hp rating is too high for the vehicle according to the "books". So I'm thinking of removing the turbo and running it so, for the MOT and possibly longer. The good thing with this motor is the setup of the turbo its bolted to the side of the exhaust manifold, making removal/installing very easy.

Cheers,

Todd.

[Snagger]

Hi guys. I'm new to this forum, so don't pounce!

I have been running a 200Tdi in my 109 for nearly a year and it has not yet harmed the transmission in any apparent way. This includes a 2,500 mile trip to do the Alps this summer, where the vehicle had to run down the auto-routes at 70mph with a 3.5T gross weight and all the drag of the kit on the roof, as well as dragging that weight up to 10,500' to the Sommelier glacier, and several hundred miles off road. The only mods to the transmission were the Rocky Mountain overdrive and transfer box bottom plate, and the only trouble on the transmission was that the oil turned a bit darker, like caramelised sugar. That is due to the heat from working so hard at high weight behind a Tdi and using cheap Comma mineral oil. Other oil changes where the vehicle hasn't been worked unusually hard produce normal looking waste oil.

As for fitting the engine without the turbo, using the intercooler would not only have no positive influence, since the induction air is already at ambient temperature, but would actually slightly restrict the air, marginally hampering performance.