chadler Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 On a similar topic, does anyone know where i can get the forged type, not the ones pictured, but the ones with the internal span increased to take into account a steering guard? I've seen lots of the normal type, just can't seem to find the ones i'm after. These ones... part number: ZXC9435 thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Marshall Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 If anyone read the recent LRO review of Jate rings then you'll know that the so-called 'experts' do not understand metal forming and speak through their rears to please their various advertisers. They eulogised over 'ultra-strong welded constructions' ignoring the fact that welding a Jate ring at right angles can never be as strong as a continuous curve and produces an object with many potential failure points. Forging, on the other hand, produces an object which can be of a complex shape but with a uniform section [or increased section at potential stress points]; where the metal that emerges is stronger than that which goes in to the die, as it is denser and has a uniform grain flow; and where the finished object is less likely to suffer from stress cracks. The reason that all Jate rings are not forged is simply that it is uneconomic to forge components in small batches and tooling is expensive - most suppliers are not prepared to pay for tooling or to hold stocks, so they offer up welded or bolted assemblies. If the latter were stronger, our squaddies would be allowed to play with them. The wider throat forged Jate ring above has simply been ground or filed down - easy to do yourself - although do be aware that the loading limits will be lower than the standard item. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 I had them then gave them away, they take all the paint from the chassis are forever buried and proved of no use whatsoever when you can't see/get to them.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minivin Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 I suspect with how people get their trucks so stuck that they need recovering, it would be interesting for a load cell to be fitted on the line to see what "dynamic loads" are being generated in the recovery process....... suspect your find that the "peak loads" are way beyond that which most recovery points are designed for as no one seems to bother touching a spade these days to prepare the recovery. If you have to get the vehicle over the mound of mud you've created by digging yourself in, then the loading to pull the vehicle "up-and-over" is going to be immense due to it not being in the direction of the pull, but in all three possible axis. JATE rings were never designed for people who don't prep a recovery, the army recovery manual has pages upon pages of recovery processes and proceedures, not just "throw a rope on and floor it". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 I suspect with how people get their trucks so stuck that they need recovering, it would be interesting for a load cell to be fitted on the line to see what "dynamic loads" are being generated in the recovery process....... suspect your find that the "peak loads" are way beyond that which most recovery points are designed for as no one seems to bother touching a spade these days to prepare the recovery.If you have to get the vehicle over the mound of mud you've created by digging yourself in, then the loading to pull the vehicle "up-and-over" is going to be immense due to it not being in the direction of the pull, but in all three possible axis. JATE rings were never designed for people who don't prep a recovery, the army recovery manual has pages upon pages of recovery processes and proceedures, not just "throw a rope on and floor it". I'd agree. Most people don't think about using a spade however a few seconds of digging can save you several minutes or more even if its just to use it like an axe to loosen up the ground. There is a reason I keep it on the wing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Hmmm a few minutes of digging A typical situation in which JATE rings would be F all use! I had to double line the winch because I couldn't get to the hook (which was hooked on to where a JATE ring would have been if I had them fitted). Mind you it isn't that often I bog it up to the spotlights ... honest I had to dig down about 6 inches to find the winch fairlead - and that is with the winch on a high mount above the bumper... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siggy Posted December 8, 2005 Author Share Posted December 8, 2005 But as I don't intend to get it stuck that ^^^^^^ much but intend to use them for assisting in pulls if another vehicle or me is struggling to proceed due to slippy conditions (read my offroad adventure on here) I assume they'll be ok here if you haven't read it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 But as I don't intend to get it stuck that ^^^^^^ much I wasn't intending to get stuck that much either Yes they would be fine for general use - just need to be aware of the limitations rather than finding them out by doing something like that ^^^ The main reason I don't use them on the front is because I have a tow rope with "very" reinforced large eyes which can happily be put over a Defender bumper without any danger of cutting through the rope, so I use that for forward pulls - it's virtually impossible to tear a whole bumper off and at worst if you bend the end round, the rope would just ping off without any large bits of metal attached. There are recovery points on the Milemarker bikini mount but I don't think they are strong enough either, so I have never used them. Also using the above rope means that you don't have to worry about whether anybody else's vehicle has recovery points on the front because most folks do have a bumper! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siggy Posted December 8, 2005 Author Share Posted December 8, 2005 I have a drop down tow hitch which I intended to replace the fittings with stainless steel fixings (copperslipped of course) for easy of removal and replace it with a nato hitch again using stainless as I'll use the drop down more than the Nato but I'll wanna swopp the two and will probably get something for the front however I had a steering guard to go back on so maybe a bumper mounting on would be better.. So I'll use the Nato for rear recovery or towing off road Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPR Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 they... are forever buried and proved of no use whatsoever when you can't see/get to them For what it's worth, I think Tony has said all that can or need be said about it. Having spent a number of unpleasant hours lying in water and mud in the jungle with leeches trying to wiggle into my mouth while I tried to get at an effing Jate ring, I abhor them. D rings are bolted pretty strongly into the dumbirons and, while I did see a Series that was so rusted through the pull just ripped the bumper off at the dumb irons, if the vehicle is in decent shape, D rings should do it. If you are so burried that the D rings are under mud, you are in such a world of sh1te that location of your recovery point is well down your list of worries.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 If you are so burried that the D rings are under mud, you are in such a world of sh1te that location of your recovery point is well down your list of worries.... PMSL! Very true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Can't you guys not get military bumpers cheaply and easily? I used one for years for front recovery. Always easy to access and hook up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was a nice truck? Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 My local club which shall remain nameless doen't consider jate rings a valid recovery point. However i beleive the militery d loops seem acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Can't you guys not get military bumpers cheaply and easily? I used one for years for front recovery. Always easy to access and hook up. I've got one - but its no use with the Bikini style winch mount as the pin fouls the mount and even if it didn't, you couldn't get the pin out anyway. Otherwise I would put it on. Agreed though - they do make a decent alternative - though they also bend in the middle if the towing vehicle gives it too much breakfast so are not 100%! I seem to think that Foley SV do a similar design but heavier duty replacement front bumper in the style of the military one with a central towing point, but I just looked on their website and I can't see it so maybe they have stopped doing it. I also found this while searching, looks interesting though a few £££ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 My local club which shall remain nameless doen't consider jate rings a valid recovery point. However i beleive the militery d loops seem acceptable. Umm, the military D shape ones are the proper JATE rings (or at least some of them are - no idea if they're all to military spec)... JATE stands for Joint Air Transport Estabilishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 I've got one - but its no use with the Bikini style winch mount as the pin fouls the mount and even if it didn't, you couldn't get the pin out anyway. Otherwise I would put it on.Agreed though - they do make a decent alternative - though they also bend in the middle if the towing vehicle gives it too much breakfast so are not 100%! I seem to think that Foley SV do a similar design but heavier duty replacement front bumper in the style of the military one with a central towing point, but I just looked on their website and I can't see it so maybe they have stopped doing it. I also found this while searching, looks interesting though a few £££ Sorry, I thought we were talking about a cheap NON WINCH recovery choice. If you are mounting a winch, you can get a real bumper with preoper recovery point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 (edited) Umm, the military D shape ones are the proper JATE rings (or at least some of them are - no idea if they're all to military spec)... JATE stands for Joint Air Transport Estabilishment. or the current link to JATEU Edited December 8, 2005 by western Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 (edited) What everyone seems to be missing is, when you go offroad and have JATE rings as your front recovery points, attach a bridle BEFORE you start and bungee it to the grille or similar. Saves a lot of hunting around in the muck.... But of course, there is always the "I'm not going to get stuck" brigade..... who I leave to attach the strop themselves..... Edited December 9, 2005 by bishbosh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 But of course, there is always the "I'm not going to get stuck" brigade..... who I leave to attach the strop themselves..... Do consider yourself the "I am going to get stuck brigade" then Bish? Ducking/putting on coat in one swift and seamless motion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Do consider yourself the "I am going to get stuck brigade" then Bish?Ducking/putting on coat in one swift and seamless motion Pot....??? Kettle?????? Black????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 What everyone seems to be missing is, when you go offroad and have JATE rings as your front recovery points, attach a bridle BEFORE you start and bungee it to the grille or similar.Saves a lot of hunting around in the muck.... But of course, there is always the "I'm not going to get stuck" brigade..... who I leave to attach the strop themselves..... Nail on the head, a bit of fore thought & prep is always a good move Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Nail on the head, a bit of fore thought & prep is always a good move Nah - spoils the fun if you are ready for everything Bish - no comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 I'm a strong believer that the recovery points and winch on a vehicle being recovered, should be as low as possible. If the direction of the recovery line is pulling the vehicle into the obstruction, it increases the line pull. I can recall may examples that proved this to me and have spent far too much time and energy recovering people with high recovery points - I hate them. The way to avoid finding the recovery points in mud is simple - attach the bridle before hand as bish said. And whowever said get the shovel out - try digging rock like we have - no thanks. Jate rings may be OK for their intended purpose, but IMHO, they look too weak for all but limp recoveries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 (edited) I have to say that I'm surprised that Jate rings are so 'weak'. I genuinly thought that they would be stronger than that. I have never used them, but plenty of people have, and quite possibly with no idea of how strong they actually are. There has been (and no doubt will be again) some bad injuries from recovery situations/equipment. Most of the time you are unlikely to know the kind of strain on recovery gear in any given situation, so the proper advice and equpment (the two should go hand in hand anyway). I personally think that any kind of recovery equipment should be rated. Cheao shackles are all very well and saving a couple of quid is no good if the shackle is being removed from your face in A&E. Looking at a properly prepped motor will tell you a lot about the owner just from the recovery points - safety is always the priority, even when you seen the lunatic things some people get up to . The front of catflap has a defender winch bumper, new dumb irons as well. The 4-bolts that hold the bumper to the chassis are bigger than original - 12mm hi-tensile, plus 2 x M10 bolts lower down. Steering guard also strengthens the front end. I'm confident that the front is as strong as I can make it. The rear cross member is new and is clad in 3mm steel to close it on completely. Rear recovery is a NATO hook re-built by me, and inside there is also an 8mm thick plate behind to spread the load. It might be a good idea to have a seperate thread for the Tech archive that covers just recovery points. For sure Bish would benefit from it Les. Edited December 10, 2005 by Les Henson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 (edited) JATE rings are rated to lift [undersling] LR 90/110's in a fully laden state & we know how Army guys load up their vehicles, as a example say JATE's are rated at 4 tonne lift, in a hauling [winching/towing] situation the rating is higher IIRC 9:1 whereas for lifting IIRC it's 3:1, my 3toone web strops are rated at 3T SWL for lifting but I can be assured they will quite happily cope with 6 or more for winch/towing jobs. I never had any problems when using my jate rings for winching off or heavy snatch tows and for that I always use a bridle to spread the load through a pair. Edited December 10, 2005 by western Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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