Axle search....

[SeriousIIa]

Hi,

In SeriousIIa I've always had some problems with breaking front shafts. (also some rear salisbury one but far less often)

I broke the short front shaft again last weekend. So decided I should upgrade it now to eliminate this weak link. (already got the upgraded TIC shaft who are much stronger then standard ones but still manage to break them ) No lockers placed or plans.

The different options I considered are:

Putting RR axle under it

pro's: Getting wider axle, Discbrakes for free, Cheap to buy.

Cons: Still have to keep the weak series rover diff (have to keep the 4.7 or lower diffs because the 35's) and halfshafts that are not that much stronger than series ones. Also have to switch the rear axle also, which will get weaker because I will the loose the Salisbury diff / shafts.

Putting 101 axles under it:

Pro's : Much wider! (is very good) nice ratio in the diffs. Bullitproof!

Cons: Expensive to buy a set (1500 quid?? or does anyone have a cheap source?) and very expensive to make a discbrake conversion and drums are not an option when offroading very frequently.

Portal C303

Pro's: Fantastic!

Cons: Price and lots of work to lower my suspension else the COG will be way to high.

Series III Salisbury Front Axle (armoured 109 ones)

Pro's: Easy to put under, madium expensive (I hope if I can find one) my TIC discbrakes can mounted, quite bulletproof

Cons: difficult to get parts, difficult to find one.

If you got any suggestionsor comments to add on this list please do.

So think I'm going for the Salisbury front axle. Now I only have to find one.....

Here they got them.

Pa Blanchard

FRC 2142 Axle Comp, F,Salisbury,Armoured III .............................................................. £895.00

FRC 2143 Axle Comp, F,Salisbury,Armoured III .............................................................. £895.00

New ones which is good. But I rather buy a bit cheaper second hand one. Anyone know one around for sale. (somewhere in the UK or on the continent)

Thanx for the input.

Cheers Bowy

[will_warne]

You may find the Salisbury front axle isn't that strong. Its interesting you still seem to be breaking front shafts but not diff centres. I know Tonks hasn't had serious problems with standard Series front shafts (34" Simex, locker and ruff arse ) so I'd suggest going back to them. Any shaft that gives up before a standard LR diff centre is pretty weak.

[SeriousIIa]

You may find the Salisbury front axle isn't that strong. Its interesting you still seem to be breaking front shafts but not diff centres. I know Tonks hasn't had serious problems with standard Series front shafts (34" Simex, locker and ruff arse ) so I'd suggest going back to them. Any shaft that gives up before a standard LR diff centre is pretty weak.

Did have the standard front shafts previously, but broke one every event. Got a very well set-up front diff , maybe that's the reason why it stays alive? Btw the TIC halfshafts tend to bent almost 180 degrees before they break so maybe less shockload because of the bending>?

I run 35x12,5 for everyday and 280x85x16 Silverstones for the extreme events. So bit bigger then 34... and yes I've got the same drivingstyle as Tonk is what the consensus is on the dutch forum

A friend of mine has a Salisbury front and the silverstone and also has a less mechanical symphatic drivestyle. And keeps it in one piece. I believe the diff should at least be a lot stronger and also the halfshafts are just as strong as the rear salisbury ones. In that way I hope to get the weakest point back to the driveflanges in the rear. Now sometimes a rear shaft/flange goed and sometime a front shaft. rather have a rear something go. Easy to extract pieces from a Salisbury and cheap as chips halfshafts/drive members.

Cheers Bowy

Edited January 1, 2006 by SeriousIIa

[dollythelw]

Portals - the extra track width will offset the COG raise or if its a big issue for you then fit shorter springs, lockers as standard and then say goodbye to driveline probs unless you go plus 37"

[SeriousIIa]

Portals - the extra track width will offset the COG raise or if its a big issue for you then fit shorter springs, lockers as standard and then say goodbye to driveline probs unless you go plus 37"

Your probably are right about the portals, but I don't have portal money (yet) so not an option for me. And if I would buy portals I think I will build another project (good reason too.....!)

Cheers Bowy

[Astro_Al]

Irrelevant bit: I'd agree with Jez and suggest you make up some Ford 9" centre sections with Mog 406 portals. CoG isn't a problem.

Relevant bit: I'm not completely familiar with the exact similarities and differences, but if you start with Salisburys front and rear, you should be able to upgrade any bits that explode to Dana 60 aftermarket bits from the States. You won't break that stuff. They run lower gearing (therefore more torque through the shafts etc), bigger tyres (a lot bigger!), heavier rigs and far bigger engines with these axles and don't have too many problems.

I think the Dana 60 (D60) and the Salisbury are effectively the same axle, but I guess there are differences somewhere?

Maybe it's an option you haven't thought of, so I thought I'd throw it in! Al.

[minivin]

You may find the Salisbury front axle isn't that strong. Its interesting you still seem to be breaking front shafts but not diff centres. I know Tonks hasn't had serious problems with standard Series front shafts (34" Simex, locker and ruff arse ) so I'd suggest going back to them. Any shaft that gives up before a standard LR diff centre is pretty weak.

he's been building a nice pile of snapped and distorted stub axle shafts over the past few events think the re-occuring theme was the UJ would shear before the 24 Spline stub shaft

[white90]

101's/Disc brakes

then forget the lot as you won't break it if Pete can't no one can.

[Astro_Al]

If it's just the UJs, why not try to get some CTMs to fit?

Al.

[simonr]

If it's just the UJs, why not try to get some CTMs to fit?

Al.

Al, what are CTM's?

Si

[white90]

UJ's

[Ben Jordan]

UJ's

Beat me to it.

[isuzurover]

If it's just the UJs, why not try to get some CTMs to fit?

Al.

The Dana 44 CTM may fit in the swivel housing, but you would need custom half-shafts with bigger ears, since they are a bigger UJ than a series. If just the UJ's are breaking, it would be cheaper to fit some Stage 1 CV joints (Part number AEU 1811).

Another option, if you want the wider track and disc brakes, would be to fit a Rangie front axle, but do the toyota diff centre conversion, then you can have 30 spline (1.3") halfshafts all the way through, so you shouldn't break anything ever again (especially if you fit Longfield CV joints at the time). You would need to switch to 4.88:1 front and a matching (Dana 60) rear though.

For the rear, you just need to widen the long axle tube 6", and move the spring pads 3" left, then you have an axle that is the same as a 110 salisbury (without the coil mounts). A 110 county long side shaft will then slot straight in. You can upgrade to disc using the bolt-on caliper mounts (don't have the part number at the moment).

[Astro_Al]

To shed a little more light...

UJ's and axles are a timeless hot-potato on many US forums. While breaking regular Rover ones comes as no surprise to any of us (least of all you, I'm sure!) and any number of aftermarket or even standard US ones will beat the pants off them, there are things to consider.

Some of them are specifically designed for certain types of event - some UJs are built with bushes under the caps. They are intended to be dismantled / greased / rebuilt on a pretty regular basis, but the internal space saved by this method allows a lot stronger design to be fitted into the same volume. There are other designs - Ox make some I think, they tend to vary mostly around the caps, they're all made from decent materials, and massive compared to the rover ones - they squeeze so much material in the space that people have genuine problems shoe-horning them into the yokes (clearance). Beefy.

The best place for info that I know of is Pirate (again...) - but the search engine can't cope with any words of less than 4 letters (I think it's 4) - so you can't search for 'CTM' or 'Ox', for example. It's amazing the number of things you can't find cos they're commonly abbreviated to 3 letters - a right pain... Never mind, use your imagination, there is ENDLESS info on ujs there, and other axle stuff - CVs if you want to go that way... How about a nice pair of lockered 40-splined 'Salisbury / D60' front axles for some unbreakable 4-wheel steer fun in the mud?

Hope that's some help. Al.

[isuzurover]

Relevant bit: I'm not completely familiar with the exact similarities and differences, but if you start with Salisburys front and rear, you should be able to upgrade any bits that explode to Dana 60 aftermarket bits from the States. You won't break that stuff. They run lower gearing (therefore more torque through the shafts etc), bigger tyres (a lot bigger!), heavier rigs and far bigger engines with these axles and don't have too many problems.

I think the Dana 60 (D60) and the Salisbury are effectively the same axle, but I guess there are differences somewhere?

Yes and no. Lots of bits can be upgraded, but if you start with a Salisbury with series swivels bolted on, you cannot do much upgrading as you can't fit the Dana 60 uj's in a series swivel housing (and a coiller housing is smaller). May be possible to stick D60 bits in is you start with a 101 front axle though - not that most people would break the 101 bits.

Here is some Dana 60/Salisbury comparison info I originally posted here: http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/...=61842&start=60

edit - please note that in OZ, "axle" is used to mean the whole assembly, and also the halfshaft.

The Land Rover Salisbury 8HA is a copy of the US Dana 60 (with some differences), manufactured by GKN in the UK (there is no such company as Salisbury Dana, but GKN and Dana have close ties AFAIK). There were a range of axles manufactured by GKN with the name "Salisbury, followed by a different model number.

The differences were:

Salisbury has a 2 pin (6 gear) diff centre instead of 1 pin (4 gear) in the D60

Salisbury has 12mm crownwheel bolts instead of 1/2" (All Salisburies had all metric internals AFAIK)

Different pinion flange, pinion spline and pinion bearing

Thinner axle tubes to reduce weight

Salisbury only available in low pinion design (D60 high and low pinion).

The Salisbury 8HA had (generally) smaller diameter axles than the D60. Most had 24 spline 1.24" axles (note NO SALISBURIES HAD THE SMALLER 1.1" 10-spline rover axles), except for the 101 Forward Control which had 1.47" 21 spline axles (some special models also had similar axles).

Because of the extra gears/cross shaft, the diff centre of the Salisbury 8HA is actually stronger than the D60 - but this is a moot point as most people throw it away to fit an ARB. NOTE - there are some HD D60 centres that have 2 cross shafts (6 gear centre).

Salisbury 8HA's were fitted to the REAR of:

All SIII 109" (4.7:1 ratio)

SIII Stage 1 (3.54:1)

110 and Defender - 3.54:1 -(until recent TD5 which went back to the weak spiral bever rover/P38 diff)

Australian Military 6x6 (both rear axles - 4.7:1)

Salisbury 8HA's were fitted to the FRONT AND REAR of:

SIII One-Ton (4.7:1)

101FC (5.57:1 ratio) - The 101 8HA had larger (more sensible) 21 spline 1.5" (approx) halfshafts and big CV joints.

Armoured SIII and 110 models (Various ratios).

The Dana 60 has a much wider range of ratios available, anything from about 3:1 to 7.17:1. The flange on the diff centre of the 3.54 and 4.7 Sals are in different locations so you must swap diff centres to swap ratios. Contrary to popular belief, to remove or replace the diff centre in a Salisbury (or D60), only a slight amount of force is needed (tyre levers to remove, soft hammer to refit) rather than spreading the casing. The carrier bearings only have a small amount of preload from the centre casing.

So to summarise...

Salisbury 8HA specs

Ring gear - 9.75"

Pinion Diameter - 1.626"

Pinion Splines - ?

Ring gear bolts - 12x12mm

Tooth width - 1.437"

Ratios available - 3.54:1 (110), 4.7:1 (Series III), 5.57:1 (101)

Axle splines available:

1.47" 21 spline (101 FC)

1.24" 24 spline (all others)

Can be converted to 1.31" Dana 30 spline or 1.5" Dana 35 spline (D60 and Salisbury diff side gears interchangeable). For 1.5", new stub axles (macnamara) and wheel bearings are required.

DANA 60

Ring gear - 9.75"

Pinion Diameter - 1.626"

Pinion Splines - 29

Ring gear bolts - 12x0.5"

Tooth width - 1.437"

Ratios available - 3.54:1 - 7.17:1

Axle splines available:

1.7" 40 spline (not stock - all others from factory)

1.5" 35 spline

1.31" 30spline

1.31" 16 spline

Edited January 2, 2006 by isuzurover

[isuzurover]

The best place for info that I know of is Pirate (again...) - but the search engine can't cope with any words of less than 4 letters (I think it's 4) - so you can't search for 'CTM' or 'Ox', for example. It's amazing the number of things you can't find cos they're commonly abbreviated to 3 letters - a right pain... Never mind, use your imagination, there is ENDLESS info on ujs there, and other axle stuff - CVs if you want to go that way... How about a nice pair of lockered 40-splined 'Salisbury / D60' front axles for some unbreakable 4-wheel steer fun in the mud?

Sorry to keep quoting you Al...

On pirate, you can search for 2 or 3 letter words by adding * or ** to make it up to 4 letters.

[Astro_Al]

Oh, great info - I've never been clear about the exact similarities of the Salisbury / D60. Nice.

Quote away! Though I would have thought making people read it once was bad enough...

It looks like if you accept that you need to change to larger swivels too, you could use most of the D60 bits, no?

I could have saved myself a LOT of trouble if I'd know about that bloomin trick in the first place... Ta for the input, Al.

[Mehetabel]

Sorry to keep quoting you Al...

On pirate, you can search for 2 or 3 letter words by adding * or ** to make it up to 4 letters.

That is great info on the comarison betweent he Dana 60 and the Salisbury, I have added it to my archive of "good stuff to know" for the Land Rover [someday I am going to want to put a locker in the back of the SW ]

cheers

[isuzurover]

It looks like if you accept that you need to change to larger swivels too, you could use most of the D60 bits, no?

Glad the D60 info was useful.

Very few front D60's come with swivel balls, most of them come as "open knuckle" with kingins of ball joints. The few that come with swivels are known to be weak.

The only LR swivel larger than a series is the FC101 swivel, but unfortunately it is welded on to the axle housing. Mal Story (Maxi-Drive) makes new swivels from a solid block of 4340 that are series-sized on the outside, but large enough to fit a 101 CV. The only downside is they cost about 350GBP each!!! The FC101 CV is about twice the size of a normal land rover CV though.

Here is a picture of a longfield Dana 60 CV joint inside a Dana 60 knuckle. These things are even bigger than a 101 CV - would be interesting to see if you could fit one in a 101 swivel ball. Only downside is that they cost $2300USD for 2CVs and 2 custom made 1.5" diameter 35 spline cromoly inner halfshafts.

[SeriousIIa]

You may find the Salisbury front axle isn't that strong. Its interesting you still seem to be breaking front shafts but not diff centres. I know Tonks hasn't had serious problems with standard Series front shafts (34" Simex, locker and ruff arse ) so I'd suggest going back to them. Any shaft that gives up before a standard LR diff centre is pretty weak.

Sorry to interupt the nice discussion.

BUT does anyone know a front Salisbury axle lying around somewhere or a wreck were one is under?

Cheers Bowy

[Guest mr_wuffles]

Northern Ireland would be a good place to start looking. I'll ask around if you want?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

From a completely different ange FIT AN ARB

You may well find you break less......theres nothing worse than an unlocked axle wheel spinning suddenly finding grip.....BANG

Fit an ARB and see then how much you break ?

Just a thought..Series Tracta hjoints are IMHO stronger than RR CVs !

Nige

[Jon White]

Just to clarify the problems Tonk was having we eventually traced to the fact that casue he'd removed the steering lock stops completely the u/j's on full lock were actually binding up hence why they sheared.

He's since put the lock stops back on and has had no futher trouble.

If you use the 24 spline outers on a series front, then the weakest part is at the diff end, and I've seen a few shafts that are twisted at this end. Tonk's done one, but only with a twist in it. A mate has done a few on his muddler, but thats running V8, lockers and dumper tyres! Generally they twist rather than actually snapping.

We both looked into uprated ones, but as neither of us has had a major problem with fornt shafts, and standard inners are cheap and easy to come by we've not bothered. Rears are another story however.

We're both running the same shafts and ARB's front and rear, only difference is I'm on 33" grizzlys where he's on 34" jungles..........and he's the ruffarse!

Jon

[isuzurover]

From a completely different ange FIT AN ARB

You may well find you break less......theres nothing worse than an unlocked axle wheel spinning suddenly finding grip.....BANG

Fit an ARB and see then how much you break ?

Sorry, but a locker is harder on the drivetrain than driving unlocked - especially on things like front axle CVs or UJs. That is the reason that all Maxi-Drive lockers come with upgraded halfshafts.

[Astro_Al]

Regarding the 24 spline front outer shafts - anyone know where to get decent ones. I need some, but are the aftermarket ones any stronger than a silver-painted turd? Should I try to find genuine ones (from where?), or just go with anything? Inners, UJs and rears are sorted.

In short: where should I get me shafts??? (Front 24-spline outers).

Ta, Al.