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nokiamutt

Save fuel HHo generator ?

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I Hate paying ott for diesel so ... fuel tax

Just been testing this generator , it produces a gass called browns gas after its founder

The system uses distilled water ,1/2 t spoon of bycarb of soda and 12v to produce a system called hydroxy .

The gas is then fed into the intake manifold or anywhere in the intake air system , the one pot system i rigged up to test gives aprox 10% saving on fuel , a cooler and smoother engine , i didnt believe it till i tried it .

U can but the kit on the net but i built my own using plans from the co inventor , the info is for sale for about £100 but i have the full info on my pc if anyone wants to give it a try , it is big in the states but not yet taken off here , u can make systems with upto 6 generators up to a max saving of about 48% in fuel ,

The jar broke whilst offroad today so im already in the process of making a 4x4 proof version ,

This system does need a bit of setting up but with all the parts you can produce one for about £15, and it will take about an hour and a half to make with 15 mins to fit to the car .

Happy to make any systems or give a hand if ne one wants to give it a try .

Ive looked allover the net for any horror stories or systems that dont work and i cant find any ???

Bear in mind its in a mess as its been on the car offroad for 3 days in a row

This is where i fitted it , not the best place but it was a first try and a work in progress .

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This is the system with a bubbler and splash bottle fitted for offroad spill catch xx

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x xThe anode and cathode ..Stainless steel wire twisted for more surface area . cheap..use lockwire for moto x gripps x

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xMe just being lazy put gas into intake instead of manifold , still waiting for a metal tap cutter to put into manifold

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x View off generator out of the jar , bubbler pipe and red irrigation end 10p from b n q , u use this to set up the excjhange of freshair into the jar when the car is running

Green bottle is used to stop water gettin in the pipe and stopps flashback when u pipe it into the inlet manifold

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xThe red bit is an adjustable bleed valve for air exchange .. again irrigation nozzle for gardening

And 12v connections , m8 bolt nut washer instant gasket and a wingnut ..

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The steel screw should have a one way valve in it from an aquarium tank ..£2 . but i took it off for the test today and had to seal the hole 4 it to work ..

x x

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x xClose up of the anode and cathode along with the bubbler tube

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This is a bit like perpetual motion. The laws of physics are against you in that you cannot get more energy out than you put in. There are no free lunches available, sorry. But whatever floats your boat B)

But keep us posted - if it saves fuel somehow lots of people will be interested.

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you cannot get more energy out than you put in. There are no free lunches available, sorry.

But you are not against the idea that, in principal, efficiency could be improved by the addition of other substances at combustion Jim? Propane? Water? :P What if this 'HHO' gas improved efficiency?

FWIW I agree, this is 'Snake Oil' but I remain open to the idea that savings can be made.

Chris

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So where does the power come from to change the water to H and O? Yes, the water is basically free though, which is why I am going the water injection route. At least I am in good company there with Rolls-Royce, Bristols, GE and P&W, also BMW and DB in WWII. I haven't actually used the WI yet because it is winter here and my Tdi doesn't even get warm on my short trip to work. Took my viscous fan off the other day to see if it would improve matters, but can't see the difference.

Mostly I am trying to save fuel by removing lead from the right foot :)

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Ive just done some math , ive been sceptical about this kind of system , but its just done a further day on the same route ,3 people in the car one dog and all my spares , same route was done last week @ 24mpg ,and it was only me and the dog , yesterday result with the hho running a little hot due to the new cathode and anode i returned 29mpg , exact same route same time of day and same time taken give or take 5 mins .

Chuffed !, there are so many different ways of setting up .

As far as water injection goes , i ran 3 high performance vehicles a few years aggo but the long term affects were negative , inducing some shock loading and thermal crown distortion , u will get away with it on an old landy for quite a while but the initial financial inputt is quite large

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Accepted. Thank you.

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Guest DiscoTD4

Hi nokiamutt, sounds like an interesting project and something I'd like to have a play with.

Thanks for taking the time to post the pics. I've sent you a PM with my email address if you could send me a copy of the info

Cheers

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Hi nokiamutt, sounds like an interesting project and something I'd like to have a play with.

Thanks for taking the time to post the pics. I've sent you a PM with my email address if you could send me a copy of the info

Cheers

Have a read of this;......electrolyser

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Nice work nokiamutt, nice to see people taking a intrest with this free gas. for those of you that cant make one, havent got the time etc etc try here, http://www.magdrive.co.uk/contactus.html a hell of a lot of people are using these in the states, it is rumoured that a couple of guys are running there small block v's using the supergen series with no petrol at all!!!! i will be experimenting with the magdrive system in next few weeks, i'll post on here to let you know the results.

if you havent researched Stan Meyer then do so, his hho generator is beleived to be the most efficent way to do this, he uses ss tubes inside one another for greater surface area with a pulse width modulator, you can get these on ebay for £15, the new magdrive supergen is selling with this add on.

have fun

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For all you non believers out there i have also been using HHO with lpg on my 3.9 V8 for a couple of years now and yes with-out doubt it works when you run v8's even an exra 1mpg is good even more so if its all but free i use 2 jars but they do say 1 per litre plus 1 is the best cheap set up.Lots of more fancy systems and add on can be found, just put HHO into ebay. If anyone wants all the info i have, i paid something like £50 for it iam quiet happy to pass it on for free its 2 pdf's one 3mb and one 7mb so if you have bb i will send it on if your on dial up i will put it on a cd or if possible can it be put on this site it is classed as share ware by it writers

Steve

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I notice that in the States these guys have stopped selling kits because it is against the law to sell stuff which has no proof as to whether it works or not. So they have now started selling books etc on how to do it, for there is no law against that, you can say anything you like in a book.

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I looked and (apart from the hilarious prices) found this:

"SPECIFICALLY, NO WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR ANY OTHER WARRANTY IS MADE OR TO BE IMPLIED WITH RESPECT TO THIS MATERIAL."

So it is not fit for any particular purpose?

Snake oil

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IT is only fit for the purpose you are using it for untill, it fails, blows up, distroys your engine and then and only then if it has been used by and or has been installed incorrectly and no refund and or responsibilty will be excepted by the makers or anyone who knows them. :P

sounds a bit like my local landrover agent

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there is another problem with browns gas it is very unstable and explosive

your car is produsing hydrogen under its bonet

i would hate to think what insurance companys would make of it

when u look at lpg systems is regulations and in the uk insurance company like a cert now

and there is a reason behind there thinking saftey

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I'm running 3 cells on my 2.25 as well... only just upgraded from 1.. with the single cell i went from 15.5mpg to just under 21mpg.. admittidly i did fit a new carb in the middle of this test :o ,but those are commuting figures... not had much cash for running the landy lately, but did stick £20 in the tank on sunday... will see how far it goes

I have a trip to cornwall coming up soon to collect a truckcab, so will be intersted to see what figures that trip will give me

Chris

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there is another problem with browns gas it is very unstable and explosive

your car is produsing hydrogen under its bonet

i would hate to think what insurance companys would make of it

when u look at lpg systems is regulations and in the uk insurance company like a cert now

and there is a reason behind there thinking saftey

You have raised some very good points but dont let the facts get in the way of a good story, we all have a battery on our cars, guess what it makes apart from electric, telling insurance companies about mods most ask you 'is it in anyway modified?' if you answer yes then they stop you there without even asking what. And a mod can mean just about anything.

HHo is not H very different beasts bit like saying diesel is petrol. lpg and any other fuel is stored HHO is not there is none before power suplied and none after if only we could produce more then it would have been in use years ago. It only helps make combution better more efficent, but like has been said before no free lunch. My two jars draw 10amps with is 120watts now we are talking power where does that come from, the engine turning the altenator thier comes a time when you start to make power to produce power it all about making what you have go futher a very hard thing to do and yes iam sure your right if and when we do we get clobberd by insurance, tax, H&s etc. just like you did when you told them about that cam you fitted or that nice set of wheels first you paid the tax man vat then the insurance went up the the charged you more vat.

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Yes browns gas is explosive, but so is petrol and there is very little gas in the system at any one time...

Anyone know how to reduce the current draw?? my units draw 15.5amps at idle. I am running a single cell in the escort and 3 in the landy.. all seem to draw the same current??? (i am using distilled vinegar as an electrolyte)

Have tried baking soda/ distilled h2o and caustic soda/distilled and also as a test just plain tap water

draws around 14amps just connected to the battery

this is testing with a little 10 amp thingy so might not be very accurate :rolleyes:

Chris

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Nick mentioned this while we were (are in fact) driving up to Kirton - suggesting there might be an element of Snake-Oil about this!

That would be my initial conclusion too - some of the claims are unlikely, verging on perpetual motion machine territory.

However, I believe the way propane injection works is that it increases the speed of propagation of the flame front, reducing the proportion of un-burned fuel and concentrating the burn in the highest torque generating part of the stroke.

It is just possible (just!) that introducing a small amount of hydrogen would have a similar effect? Hydrogen burns pretty fast, so a smaller amount may have a disproportionally large effect compared to propane.

I'm not saying I believe it - but that gives a possible mechanism by which it might work.

Si

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Oh come on people, if it draws 14 amps at about 14 volts (running voltage of alternator), it is taking about 200 watts straight out of the alternator, and therefore straight out of the engine. To get something back, the added hydrogen would have to add more than 200 watts back in to the system. You may notice a difference in fuel consumption day to day - that can be down to the temperature and pressure of the day. If it worked, don't you think that motor companies with their engines on dyno's would have tried it - they spend millions of pounds every year trying to edge down fuel consumption - if they could get this from water, we would be filling up with it already at petrol stations. Buy or make on if you want, but it is simply a tax on the stupid and easily led.

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Nick mentioned this while we were (are in fact) driving up to Kirton - suggesting there might be an element of Snake-Oil about this!

That would be my initial conclusion too - some of the claims are unlikely, verging on perpetual motion machine territory.

However, I believe the way propane injection works is that it increases the speed of propagation of the flame front, reducing the proportion of un-burned fuel and concentrating the burn in the highest torque generating part of the stroke.

It is just possible (just!) that introducing a small amount of hydrogen would have a similar effect? Hydrogen burns pretty fast, so a smaller amount may have a disproportionally large effect compared to propane.

I'm not saying I believe it - but that gives a possible mechanism by which it might work.

Si

Time to drag some stuff from the back of my head.....

Si and Troddenmasses are on the button here. If you think about what is going on during the distillation / burning reaction you will quickly see that any gains from the gas alone are impossible:

First off - distillation. You put in energy to break the O-H bonds although you get some energy back when the H-H and O-O bonds form. This gives an overall positive enthalpy (ie you have to put energy in)

Burning - this will be a reverse of the above reaction which has a negative enthalpy of the same figure as the above reaction. This means, in enthalpy terms, the reaction does nothing for you.

So far then it appears that this is doing nothing for you but, on the flip side, its not doing you any harm. However, this is not considering the 2nd law of thermodynamics. This can be written in many ways but, basically, says you cant get something for nothing with the result of a reaction like this being an increase to the entropy (disorder) of the universe as a whole. Even if you step away from the Chemistry this makes sense - no device is 100% efficient and the power to do the electrolysis comes from the alternator which is powered by the engine!

The only possible saving grace of this system may be that it could have the same effect as propane and could help produce a more efficient burn in the engine. The thing about propane is that to get a reasonable increase in performance you want to increase the amount of fuel you inject into the engine. At best, though, with a Brown's gas system you will only get an effect of a few percent which may be enough to mean this whole exercise is not reducing the efficiency of engine. In practice it is unlikely to be even that good. Also, on a modern engine, the mapping is so good that the burn will be pretty complete.

If you are really worried about fuel consumption get a smaller, more modern car with the most efficient (diesel) engine you can find and drive slower.

Will Warne B.Sc Hons Chemistry

Edited to add - if anyone is stupid enough to drive around with a glass jam jar of Hydrogen under the bonnet they very much deserve the Darwin award that is surely coming their way!

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