Off-topic threads

[the_mouse_man]

YES IT WAS ME.

My take on it is that it keeps coming up as some people want an OT bit and some do not.

/Newbie steps into Lions den/

So why not have a poll???

Would it not be (given the strength of feeling expressed by some members with much more experience than me) really that hard to have an OT section for those that wanted to use/read it??? - if they voted for it.

/Newbie retreats/

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

.

[wkw90]

Read this ....

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=27313&hl=

I have had more than enough too

Signing off

Nige

That link does not work

[FridgeFreezer]

Trying to be constructive, how about:

- An "OT" forum / sub-forum / graveyard

- A way for members to report threads or posts they consider to be OT, a bit like some forums have a star rating but in reverse, if a thread gets enough votes from people it gets locked/pulled?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I was trying to find the most exellent post from BBC re the last time this bickering and squabbling came around,

His quote for me summed up the 5 pages very nicely, here it is :

Many of you should be ashamed at the argumentative nature of your posts and some of the utter tripe you are posting …………………….. for Christ sake, it is exactly the type of thing the mods are trying to control.

Do you want this place infected by a bunch of middle aged woman posting tripe all day long because they have nothing else better to do ? ………………. there are at least two other LR orientated forums that have gone that way

Even well respected forums have to pull the plug on chit chat ……………. This is what happens with chit chat sections that get out of hand (even with cast iron moderating)……………. The guy that owns this is also a member here……..

Now shutthef’ukup and just let the mods and admin get on with it…………….

Ian

I'm off now, back sometime, preferably when I have calmed down

Nige

[Mo Murphy]

That was relevent last time Nige but not this time. Sorry.

Mo

[Mean Green]

Surely this post has demonstated one thing more than anything - there needs to be an area for non spefic LR items - such as Tax, insurance etc - that are still important to the Land Rover owners & Drivers.

These are very real issues that need to be discussed.

If there were a new section - the mods simply needed to move the threads considered OT into that forum thus those who are interested can discuss and those who are only interested in the tech side have there area too. The downside to this is that it creates more work for the mods.

I also think the mods should make more use of the "Merge" function - when we find multiple threads about the same topic - merge them into one. I have seen this done on other forums (or should that be fora?? I am never sure)

I am not a fan of locking threads at all. If a thread needs to be locked it must be generating a lot of interest - therefore people must feel it is important enough to post - the only real justification that I can see for locking a topic is if the boils down to two or three people mudslinging or personal insults, and in this situation I would expect that the individuals concerned would have a warning issued (by PM) from the mods.

I think in general the mod team here do a very good job and have made LR4x4 THE place to come for technical information / advice. Having been a mod on another site in the past, I know what it can be like and it is very easy for people to criticise without knowing all the facts. However on this occassion i do feel that the way it has been handled has become more of an issue than the closing of the threads - it seems to be a "it's our way or no way" situation from the mods and an apparent unwillingness to consider the feelings of the "masses".

[dougstar]

Trying to be constructive, how about:

- An "OT" forum / sub-forum / graveyard

- A way for members to report threads or posts they consider to be OT, a bit like some forums have a star rating but in reverse, if a thread gets enough votes from people it gets locked/pulled?

thats the type of thing i was on about fridge you just put it a bit better ............... it just needs tweeking some more between the members and the mods to make it ' workable '

Dougie

[protoprincess]

I fear change...

Leave it as it is, running the site requires time, effort.....I am pleased that somebody else is doing it. No OT threads please, they have the tendency to become clicky and easily go down the hill

It can't be that bad as there are many new members joining all the time - some of us are just a clingons (lol some of you actually know stuff

great combination

[Ryan]

I joined this forum on the recommendation of a SLRC member who was on here. The recommendation was that LR4x4 was the best forum for someone new to Land Rovers (as I was and still am). I am still learning when it comes to Land Rovers and I find that this forum is the best for technical queries and recommendations (I do use the search facility and the tech archive). I have sometimes been guilty of posting slightly off-topic threads (an emergency PC question comes to mind), but I think I have been lucky as I normally stay on-topic.

I have been lucky to meet some LR4x4'ers, and have even managed to buy a Land Rover off one of them! I know some of the members because they also belong to the same club as me. Because of this, I sometimes post banter - but then so do many others, including mods and admins.

I feel that some of what is being deemed off-topic (car tax, rising fuel costs etc), is still relevant to this forum, as it affects us all. But, please, not over and over again. We knew months ago that the car tax was changing and it would be back dated to 2001 (that's why I was stearing clear of TD5's when looking for a Defender over the last couple of months). With regards to the same questions coming up (tyre sizes, suspension set up, etc), they do frustrate me, but, as someone who does use the advanced search, I can still get four pages of irrelevant posts (it's the same using google to search the forum). Therefore, the chances are the question I'm about to ask, has probably been asked before - it's just that I can't find it, or the last time it was asked, no particular conclusion was reached.

Back on-topic (as far as this thread is concerned), I can only hazard a guess of how the mods and admins can decide what is and isn't for the forum. However, I think the starting point (once you get past the obviously Land Rover-related items) is will this topic affect (or be of interest to) the vast majority of forum members in the use of their Land Rovers. If the answer is yes, then move onto "has this be raised a hundred (exaggeration) times before?" if so, then point the poster in the right direction, if the answer is no, then let it run for a while and see how it goes.

But please, lets not get into name-calling or suchlike, I'm sure it's beneath most of us (if it's not then go to ORRP).

[steve_a]

I'm not surprised to see another thread like this. From what I have read I like Les, but statements as he has made them will always instigate a reply.

Devils advocate:

Why do we have an 'international' section anyway? Surely it should be to talk about international variations in land rovers only?

Any other topic should be in the defender, range rover etc forum.

It's also in an area called "the lounge", well I don't keep any LR in there, and not likely to either, the nature of the forum is that we should only really be talking about how many rivets each LR has in the "lounge" surely.

<Serious mode>

Perhaps what is needed is an annual vote in or off for moderators. This would indicate if the general consensus disagreed and conversely allow the mods to exercise authority based on validated backing.

Also, having rolling moderators, i.e. you are asked to be a mod for a month, would improve the transparency of the system.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

take the wind out of that sail....

[Kim Horsevad]

I have been reading LR4x4 since 2005 and it is the best source for technical information about landrovers I have ever seen. Most of the other forums are filled with chat and people voicing their opinions about how a specific task is performed - On LR4x4 the answers are not usually based on opinions, but based on technical knowledge and engineering expirience. That is how I would like LR4x4 to continue!

Regarding the Off-topic threads, I think that the moderators are doing the necessary thing, namely to lock the threads which gets totally out of control. If everything was allowed then the technical content would be diluted to the point of vanishing...

My view on this thread is that some members maybe has read some of the comments a little to harsh. This continuing bashing on the moderators (especially Les) are something which this forum easily could do without. Maybe there is some dis-agreement over which threds are too far off-topic, and maybe some comments could have been written more polite, however such dis-agreements does not need to turn into "wars", with people calling each others Hitlers (post 29183) and the like. Surely some of the messages from the admins could have been worded in a less provocative way; but then again - trying to maintain a technical focus on such a big website is quite a challenging task, and maybe the wording is chosen to reflect that...

A few off-topic threads actually has a function as keeping the memberbase together as a community, but then again - too much off-topic has the effect of pushing the few knowledgeable "experts" into the background. This is actually a rather demaning task to try to measure the value of a given thread. My opinion would be that members who have contributed large amount of tech should also be allowed a wider rein with regards to off-topic threads. Maybe some would find this un-just, or un-democratic, but it would still be my view on this subject.

It is a good democratical principle that each individual is uniqe and has value as an individual. But like the normal everyday life some are much more knowlegdgeable in specific areas than others. The huge amount of members on LR4x4 should therefore be thankfull that some of theese knowlegdeable members have devoted some of their time to keeping LR4x4 a nice place to be. Suggestions such as "rolling moderators" (voiced in post #288533) would never be realistic - as the amount of knowledge and expirience greatly varies from person to person. This would create a moderating effort without any kind of strategy or general consensus form the userbase.

As to who guards the guardians - ("Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" - from posting #288533): I dont see the mods or admins as guardians... I see them as volunteers who have volunteered for a diffucult job to help the community.

Hopefully this issue gets resolved in an constructive way!

[Chris Abel]

I personally think an odd few loosely related but humorous threads only add to the forum and the enjoyment of users. Certainly make me chuckle after a hard day. On the other hand there are heaps of 100% land rover related threads that are either repetitive or insanely simple/moronic that drive myself and many other users crazy to the extent that people are starting to be less fond of the forum. These threads seem to add nothing too the nice, friendly, easygoing feel of the forum but make it a manual for people who cant be bothered too get off there a**e and sort simple things out.

There, I don't usually get involved in the politics of the site but Its been annoying me (and others) for ages. But now I've had my rant and feel better !

Steve.

I totally agree with Steve and many others on this one, maybe the forum needs a new Section.

Perhaps an OT / good humour

Forums are always going to be a place of conflict, everyones knowledge, skill, morals, experience, humour, etc, varies considerably

[FridgeFreezer]

If an OT forum was created the number of posts, or lack thereof, would be an easy indication of the demand for OT stuff. If no-one ever posted there the mods would have conclusive proof that people didn't want OT stuff, it could be deleted and the argument would be settled.

Oops, almost forgot <throws teddy> just to join in

[Lara]

Haven't you just answered your own arguments?

If no one wanted, posted or responded to (what the mods feel is) OT posts then there wouldn't be any, and this whole post wouldn't be here and we would not be wasting time discussing it!

Thing is, that we are, and there are good OT borderline topics in general and the ones that no one wants show up rather quickly, perhaps we should be very careful not to jump in "all guns blazing" here?

Besides, Jim's intercom is surely ON TOPIC! it is for Landrover drivers use, although it is a bit of a reinvention of the wheel just brought up to date!

( What do you mean "not real" )

Lara.

[roguevogue]

Les, has the forum been compromised by someone hijacking your user name?

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Running...................

[TJ101]

Busy day Nick

Think we are now passing the " minimal percentage of the membership." you were on about Les

[JimAttrill]

As far as I am concerned the whole 'International' forum is where things go that you can't really put in a specific forum, so lots of stuff is a bit OT by definition. I think Steve and I on the Discofairy forum very rarely have to lock or delete anything because even OT threads will fall off the board after a while with no action being taken. Or, as Steve has suggested, Disco owners are a better class of forumeers

Not that I can include myself, as someone might point out

[Guest diesel_jim]

I think maybe the international forum should be re-classified as slightly more o/t, that, or have an o/t forum on here.

Take for example, me last night. I'm after some software (not really much to do with LR's, well, it is, it's to sort out all the photo's of the project110 into some kind of selectable menu style with added text for each picture).

now, it's kinda LR related, but could equally be used for "any" bunch of photo's, and i know that a lot of forumeers here are IT chaps, and might well know about a bit of software i could use.

i was in a predicament.... do i post it on the forum, to be flamed for being too far O/T but at the same time get the message to everyone, hoping that one person might have an answer, or faff around joining another internet forum and hoping that "they" will accept a newbie's question straight off.

It just seems that as i know a lot of people on here (as we all do... /group hug/ etc) it would be easier and friendlier to have an area on here for such things.

It should still be moderated... keep out stupid jokes,silly online tests, total rubbish etc.

[Guest WALFY]

Jamie

That would fit in the Wanted section. Software to sort out your LR related bits.

[dollythelw]

Well just come across this thread. Been out and about tonight.

Nige If you are to blame for this latest clean up then why didn't you start the thread then? Why let Les do your "dirty work" for you? Or did you give him the seed and let him grow it. I am by no means a senior member here but I have been here from the start. It seems as though that when the mods/admin want something saying Les seems to be the mouthpiece. Not sure if that is his choice or he's the duty speaker?

Les has mentioned doing a thread to vote off a mod/admin. If that's what he wants then, and he has the confidence of the support of the forum let him start the poll and live with the consequences. Seems like an easy out to me.

As other senior members have said this place is becoming a lttle stifled with the threatened moderation. This forum is for the members by the members. If you have a small group telling everyone what to do on here it WILL go downhill. People advertising their events/companys is fine IF they put something back to the forum. 4x4 Adv and X Eng spring to mind. If we are going down the route of no adverts then lets get rid of all mention of other websites companys and business' from peoples signature. Some are so blatent and some are subtle.

With donations to the forum I don't think it would work if forced upon members. Some make a monetry contribution some in knowledge, how do you put a value on knowledge. Others offer goods/services and only ask for a forum donation. I gave out a few sets of ear defs the other week and asked for forum donations. Would be good to see how many actualy made a donation! There is no way of checking up without being churlish about it.

This thread will prob be locked in a couple of days if we the masses speak out against the few. I/we know that you do a great job and you have to keep us in check every now and again BUT we the masses also have a say in how the forum is run. A bit like politics, if you upset the populus you get voted out.

In my line of work you are only as good as your last job. So if we applied that to the forum. The mods/admin are only as good as their last decision!

Sorry Mark - not being contentious, just using your post as a point of reference

what the hell is a senior member? everyone (I thought) is equal? (if not why not?)

if companies start advertising and slutting out on this forum then its as good as dead, regardless of how much gin they slosh into appropriate hip flasks, the forums independance and inability to dominated by corporate carp is one of the elements that make it attractive. Im in total agreement about banning ads, subtle or not. product discussions are great - trolling just to get a companies name on the leaderboard is sad (but funny ).

donations - should be that, in whatever form that takes, subscriptions suck IMO

Im not in favour of a mod of the month setup, I think it would be unworkable and end up as fickle as house of commons, long live the lords and the ability to stick to something regardless of its current knee jerk popularity.

as for on topic / off topic.. well in god we trust, if the mods do a bad job then it will be QED, the portents of doom will be proved right, people will stop posting and we can all get back to donkeyprawn.net. I think they do a good job (the mods, not donkeyprawn - thats gone downhill ), sometimes a decision is popular and other times its not.. but overall I have a deep respect for the balance they achieve and the hard work they put in.

my association with Landies these days is tenuous at best (as Ali stated), thought it might be of interest to post up from an engineering point of view but if our team cars dont feature enough green oval to be here then no fuss we wont post em up

I think a lounge would be an interesting proposal though, what it evolves into is anybodies guess but playing devils advocate the more cliquey it gets the less attractive it becomes for newcomers..

[Mo Murphy]

In the interests of fairness and balance it should also be pointed out that the moderator with the original gripes about slightly OT posts is also an OT poster himself, the most recent of which IIRC regarded laptops and sharing postal costs for purchases in the USA. One rule for us ...

Mo

[Guest diesel_jim]

Jamie

That would fit in the Wanted section. Software to sort out your LR related bits.

Good thinking batman..... why didn't I think of that.

[Guest WALFY]

Good thinking batman..... why didn't I think of that.

Jamie

Anything to help you out .

Forgot to say the other day. Thanks for the parcel, just got to try and find time to see if it fits.

[reads90]

Hey andy should now by now its , do i as i say not as i do

Meaning?

as roguevogue has said , i rest my case ,

and owe roguevogue a beer as i could not be ar** to find them all, but knew they were there somewhere

Les, has the forum been compromised by someone hijacking your user name?

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Running...................