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Adding extra HP to RRC


roverturbo

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yes you guessed it slight stretch of the imagination i bought a ex tvr ecu and was told it was a 300 bhp ecu but as it was from a tvr i tried it and found a vast improvment over the standard ecu but with the mods i have done it does only rearly equate to @200bhp if i was lucky.

now what has me puzzeled from the replys is the mega squirt system i have not seen one so cannot rearly comment on them but why are they better than 14cux? and why dose the garage i work at sell somany 14 cux ecu and looms to people rather than just engines? what are the upside issues of 14 cux compared to mega squirt?

of and buy the way it is running a 4.2 cam

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yes you guessed it slight stretch of the imagination

:rofl: yeah thats one way of overstating it :rofl:

ECUs are designed for road motors by committees, even TVR ones

One member of the committe wants economy another one want performance etc etc ....so they tend to be average at everything, the TVR ones are just slightly more skewd to performance but at the top end

The TVR ECUs and hedgehoged tornadod and other chipped ECUs tend in the main to be more "Performance" based - period.

This will give an immeadite increase in BHP, esp if additional mods are also done,

but it is VERY hit and miss as to the accuarcy. ie 2x 3.9 with the same mileage can perform very differantly with the same ECU

due to tolerances and wear etc. I have now tuned several Megasquirt V8s ....and have been amazed by similar engines being so very different :)

A 14CUX is an ECU set by the factory as above or a ECU tweaked for a 'guestimated' performance MAP,

MS can be absolutely tuned and dialed in to the exact engine it's fitted to.... and refined to a level a 14CUX would have a big wet dream over.

And yes your imagination has run riot,

a 300BHP Chipped ECU on a 3.9 will be running rich as it will be mapped for a engine producing 300 BHP and not the sub 200 your prob getting at best.

Even on a TVR 300 BHP will involve screaming the naggers off it, my engine a JED 4.5 with Omega Pistons Billet Crank carillo rods special liners / bore work, race heads with huge reporting ultra big valve heads, whizzy cam, vernier gears and chain all set up right, HUGE 47mm trumpets and these then flowed right through the inlet tract giving massively ported inlet manifold all matched ports and more will maybe make 270 and a bit, even a properly 5.2 V8 around £13K built now may make 330+ BHP, and thats prob with a dyno and again Mappable system not a 14CUX with a wipe of ginger on its ar*e

Frankly a TVR ECU on a 3.9 is not good without serious mods to match and even then the PDC of the ECU doesn't match 2 tons of RR etc for power delivery as you need low grunt not high RPM a la TVR. There is absolutely no "Upside" to a 14 CUX and loom other than easy to fit, but thats it, compared with a programmable mappable ECU its as far away as a Chavy Nova wiv a 5" zorst and a beat box innit mate to a F40

post-22-1216848226_thumb.jpg post-22-1216848285_thumb.jpg post-22-1216848425_thumb.jpg post-22-1216848511_thumb.jpg post-22-1216848543_thumb.jpg post-22-1216848572_thumb.jpg post-22-1216848712_thumb.jpg

300 BHP Chipped ECU - Please my ribs can't take much more :rofl:

Nige

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I am by no means an expert here but.... The garage you work at probably sells so many 14CU ECUs because either they go wrong and need replacing or people change from carbs to EFI.

The latter is done sometimes for more power, sometimes cause when off road carbs dont like steep angles and all the banging about reeks havok in the float chambers. Cant think that anyone would want to change to EFI for reliability. well not with the dodgy air flow meters and ancient ECU. Even though it has stood the test of time.

In order to change from Carbs to an EFI system they also need a different inlet manifold and various other EFI components, perhaps your garage sells these too.

The other thing with garages, they usually repair things to the manufacturers spec, and the manufacturer didnt use MS

MS is kind of a modifying addition to an engine. The odd chav may MS his Nova and write Novataken on the back window but its also popular in the landrover circuit to give a V8 more swimming ability with MS+Spark and ford EDIS ignition.

For me its cheeper and alot easier to source then a new Air flow meter after mine had abit of blowback and went funny. Also it brings that stone age EFI system into more recent times.

Normally with ECUs and AFMs from this system its not easy to get new ones. They either do advance replacement were they send you a serviced one for your broken one in return. Or you send yours in to be serviced and they send it back working. Oh and they usually cost a bomb.

I found a flapper type AFM from rimmer bros for £419 about the price of megasquirt with and EDIS 8

Guess were leaning away from the subject of BHP now.

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Er yes and No

And I speak from experince in what a engine like I have is like to live with on a Std EFI system (albeit modified).

Starting was a Ritual of the highest order,

tickle under the chin,

hold a chicken by the throat in the left hand

with 2 skips singing "I should be so lucky lucky lucky F lucky "

turn the key

tweak the throttle

but not too much

and have the engine catch,

then blip a little bit till warm increaeing as the warmth increases

and FFS don't switch it off now.......

The the tickover was like a bag of spanners in a tumble dryer at less than 1200 RPM

with flat spots under 3500 and then all hell breaks loose (ish) - misfires regularly,

eats plugs (soots them up) see traffic jams with a panick feeling cause it will choke up

Megasquirt with PWM

Walk up to LR shove key through window turn fire it up walk away as it warms and settles to 920 RPM

Drive and it goes like a demented thing for 2 tons (doesn't it fridge / V8 freak :rofl: ?? )

For a touchy highly tunned race negine like this, MS can transform a touchy lurchy dead under 3500 rpm easily flooded tempermental engine into a V8 pussycat that seems to have no "Race engine issues" at all, I have blended out the cam step, with BBCs help a PWM and closed loopp for starting, resolved the valve overlap and MOT "FFS Mate thats rich with a capiatl R - thats a fail" problem and made it more drivable and as a resuklt the BHP has got up AND is more usable :)

14 CUX - makes a good wheel chock when the handbrake fails, buy an X-Brake then you can finally bin it :rofl:

Nige

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It's not often I'll say this but I think we're approaching as much sarcasm as it's reasonable to aim at VogueSE39, given that he wasn't willy-waggling as others have in the past over such daftness at tuned TDi's. At least he's asking questions rather than calling people names. That's not to say I didn't have a chuckle reading the responses though ;) perhaps we should have a forum dyno day sometime?

Back on topic, another reason not many people sell MS systems is it's largely a not-for-profit thing, prices of built systems are, give or take, kept in check by Bruce & Al and the community in general. Compare that with commercial mappable ECU's where they can charge whatever the market will bear, and you can see why many places wouldn't bother stocking or supporting a system designed for minimum profit.

Also compared to other systems, there's almost no money to be made from supporting it as its whole existence is so that people can tune their own cars, not pay someone with a dyno and a special laptop to do it for them.

Why are they better than 14CUX?

  • Not designed by Rover / Lucas
  • 20 years younger technology
  • Open source firmware and software, and it's free
  • Not designed by Rover / Lucas
  • Designed by petrolheads for petrolheads
  • Not designed by Rover / Lucas
  • Infinitely tunable and re-tunable by you, with a laptop, PDA, or mobile phone, using free software
  • Designed to be modified, upgraded, tweaked to do different things for different people with different engines
  • Not designed by Rover / Lucas

Oh and you can have this on your dashboard as you drive :P

tune_fuel.png

You'll note there's even an AutoTune function for total muppets :unsure:

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Any Ideas as to what i can use my old 4cu and flapper system for after next week ish???????????

Sandwich box :lol:

MS I think set up right can out perform a std V8 + Lucas ECU AFM Dizzy, pound for pound its a cracking mod, but it takes a LOT of hours to fit, and then more if your goning to tune it to get the maximum BHP smoothness you can from it, as fridge has said a ECU program could be e-mailed and you'd be amazed how good that would be, and then there the fact the V8 is waterproof too :)

I would say MS is good for BHP, smoothness, waterproofing and getting the maximum benifit from tuning - say a better cam etc, whereas the 14 CUX is not that flexible and the parts cost frightening and the relaiblity er "Variable"

Nige

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Aaron,

You could always put a MegaSquirt inside it, although it does seem largely pointless as having the ability to plug a 14CU back in seems as worthwhile as having flaps in the floor so you can scoot along like the flintstones.

Still, someone wanted it so I done did it:

500_LucaSquirt_Inside.JPG

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it takes a LOT of hours to fit

IF you build a complete new loom from scratch it does... if you use a wiring pigtail and do a bit of prep work you can go from Lucas to MS in a few hours, I've done it several times. My RR took four hours, including the time it took to cook & eat the pizza :lol:

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Thats a good idea Fridge, I may put the MS inside the old ECU case. Wolf in sheeps clothing so to speak lol.

I should of had a word with you to build me a mega squirt first but iv been planning it for a few months now and didnt get chance to look on here.

Anyway im doing fuel only in the first phase to get it on the road properly again, then fitting EDIS then sending it back to get EDIS support fitted to the ECU. So i see in the classifieds you do EDIS-8

Looks like another member to the megasquirt team coming soon.

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Whenever the question of "Tuning" comes up in peoples minds, often the 1st Querstion other than "What shall I do" is more around "What are you trying to achive", some want low end grunt some want all out BHP etc how you get it (cams Valvework heads compression changes, bores changes, etc etc) is then one thing, getting the extra performance then from those mods is the real trick.

MS should also be viewed in my eyes as a performance tweak - by its very nature you can then set it to optimise what you have done and also tune the engine to get that, the waterproofing is of real interest to the offroad groups, but don't disgaurd MS for its tuning potential :)

Nige

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Very interting thread, but it does leave me with a few more questions. :unsure:

@HTH, I was told it's relatively easy to get around 250 bhp out of 4.6 instead of the standard 225 bhp. Yet you claim to make 'only' 270ish with al those fancy mods. I tend to believe you, but wouldn't this imply the quoted figure of 225 bhp in standard tune is also a bit optimistic?

And what about the GEMS engines like mine? They should in theory offer a lot more possibilities for remapping and modifications, because of the adaptive values. I am considering getting a Mike Adams rechip or a retune at a local TVR-dealer that comes highly recommended. Or is MS also an option to get more out of the P38a for less money?

THX!

Filip

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There is IMHO a huge amount of nonsense talked re BHP figures, and BHP isn't everything torque and tractability are often more importnat, I have seen high BHP engines in the past that have powerbands the size of Rizla fag papers, and yes in the band phenominal, outside it a wide selection of sod all. Other car with less BHP and a usable powerband in dyno terms is far less powerfull, but, and its the big one......., the 1st car is just too touchy too twitchy and horribly difficult to drive fast re rpm vs gear etc and the second frankly isn;t and therefore from a driving point a view the 1st is tiring and difficult to get the performance from making the second fell and oddly enough actauilly behave as though its the more powerfull.

The GEMS systems are a big step change from CUX systems, the ECU thouigh is still changed by remapping just as the CUXs and not as a fully mappable programmable tune on the go system. You don't find many of the top V8 engine builders using CUX systems :), true they also don't use MS either (for all sorts of reasons mainly its DIY and time heavy as has to be built etc) so they will use Omex/Emerald DTA stuff etc which is if you like "Commercial" MS :)

Nige

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There is IMHO a huge amount of nonsense talked re BHP figures, and BHP isn't everything torque and tractability are often more importnat, I have seen high BHP engines in the past that have powerbands the size of Rizla fag papers, and yes in the band phenominal, outside it a wide selection of sod all. Other car with less BHP and a usable powerband in dyno terms is far less powerfull, but, and its the big on, the 1st car is too touchy to twitchy re rpm vs gear etc and the second frankly isn;t and therefore from a driving point a view the 1st is tiring and difficult to get the performance from making the second fell and oddly enough actauilly behave as though its the more powerfull.

The GEMS systems are a big step change from CUX systems, the ECU thouigh is still changed by remapping just as the CUXs and not as a fully mappable programmable tune on the go system. You don't find many of the top V8 engine builders using CUX systems :), true they also don't use MS either (for all sorts of reasons mainly its DIY and time heavy as has to be built etc) so they will use Omex/Emerald DTA stuff etc which is if you like "Commercial" MS :)

Nige

I totally agree about bhp not bein everything, that's why I'm concentrating on improving low end grunt with my rebuild. I don't like engines that need high revs to give you a feeling of power (like my mom's Honda...). This is also the main reason I value the torquey TD5 a lot more then the more powerfull but rev-hungry BMW diesel in the P38a.

Still not sure about the MS, can this be used on a GEMS engine or will this lead to all sorts of complications?

Greetz,

Filip

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I guess in terms of the whole thread then we need a little understanding here…………..

HP (or BHP – Same thing) is a calculation of ‘work done’ and torque is a measured quantity that is part of the HP calculation.

HP = Torque x 2 Pi x RPM / 33000 or to put it in common engineers language,

Horsepower = Torque x rpm / 5252.

Torque = Horsepower x 5252 / rpm

(5252 is derived from 33000 / 2Pi) ….. ok, if you want to be precise then the figure is,

5252.113122032546080373164191293 :rolleyes:

Torque is the force that that is produced at the flywheel and then transmitted by various means the wheels. Just like we think of pulling or pushing forces, torque can be considered to be a twisting force.

So…….. when somebody says that their engine produces 300bhp, it sounds really impressive ……….. but maybe not, because the next question would be ‘at what RPM’ ?

When the guy says 6000 rpm , then you just smile and walk away, because you now know that your engine which produces 250bhp @ 4000 rpm is a more powerful as it produces more torque.

300 x 5252 / 6000 = 262ft/lbs

250 x 5252 / 4000 = 328ft/lbs

As a pure calculation of power that is fine, but it is not the whole story ;) . The meat of the story is the way in which the torque is produced which gives the ‘torque curve’ when plotted against rpm and the only way of doing this is with a dyno.…………..

On my 3.9 the max torque is produced at 2700 rpm, however, the torque curve shows that it is producing more torque at 1400 rpm that it is at 4500rpm.

In ‘off road’ use we need the engine to produce as much torque as possible at low rpm. If this could be replicated throughout its capable rev range then this would make a very powerful engine, however, it is generally understood that if changes are made to achieve low rpm performance, then the torque produced at higher rpm suffers. Naturally the larger the displacement then the better the torque is at the lower rpm, however, within reason a smaller displacement engine can be tuned at the lower rpm band to produce similar levels of performance as its bigger brother within a given rev range.

The key areas here are in valve timing, and inlet / exhaust design.

:)

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Still not sure about the MS, can this be used on a GEMS engine or will this lead to all sorts of complications?

GEMS is just the brains, at the end of the day you still have 8 injectors bolted to the same old Rover V8 block. There's just a lot more wires with GEMS as it fires ignition coils as well. MS can run pretty much any internal combustion engine, people have done chainsaws, 27L Merlin engines, twin Wankel rotary engines, etc.

Putting MS in the place of the GEMS ECU could be quite a wiring task (MS won't use half the wires of GEMS), and there's side issues like the GEMS ECU talking to the car's alarm / immobiliser. I'm sure it's possible with a bit of work, I'll be doing my Freelander at some point and that has the same issues. You may well be able to leave the GEMS ECU connected to the alarm and just steal the useful wires from it, replacing sensors with resistors to fool it into thinking everything's OK.

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GEMS is just the brains, at the end of the day you still have 8 injectors bolted to the same old Rover V8 block. There's just a lot more wires with GEMS as it fires ignition coils as well. MS can run pretty much any internal combustion engine, people have done chainsaws, 27L Merlin engines, twin Wankel rotary engines, etc.

Putting MS in the place of the GEMS ECU could be quite a wiring task (MS won't use half the wires of GEMS), and there's side issues like the GEMS ECU talking to the car's alarm / immobiliser. I'm sure it's possible with a bit of work, I'll be doing my Freelander at some point and that has the same issues. You may well be able to leave the GEMS ECU connected to the alarm and just steal the useful wires from it, replacing sensors with resistors to fool it into thinking everything's OK.

I'll be smart (for once) and stay away from the ECU at the moment. :ph34r:

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Whilst staying with the GEMS ECU is a good idea, it does have a problem.

Reprogramming after market ECU's to take account of any engine modifications is an easy task............... remapping a GEMS chip will require a dyno and somebody like Mark Adams (or anybody that knows the bit map) to achieve good results............... that option also generally tends to be a little spendy.

:)

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whats the best MS ecu to get, and what price range is it in?

Normal MS-1, PCB Version 3, running MegaSquirt'n'Sprak-Extra firmware. This is basically all I supply these days as it does everything and is, as far as possible, idiot proof. That's not to say there aren't some exceptional idiots out there though :P

The ECU itself is ~£250 built depending on what options you have - if you have a read through previous MS threads you will hopefully find useful info. The normal spec is set up for EDIS and with PWM idle valve control added, although some people have additional things like table switching, fan control, etc.

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