Jump to content

Problems With Defender TD5 - Getting Desperate


Recommended Posts

Hello there everyone!

I'm new here.

And I have a problem..

This spring, my trusty Land Rover('02 Defender 110 TD5) started keeping weird noises. Well, this was easy - it was the fuel pump.

The noise wasn't anymore the constant usual whining, but rather alternating weird humming.

But it usually did correct itself after it had run for awhile. Sometimes the sound was perfectly normal during the start.

Later started the starting problems. It just wouldn't start. Did a bit of reading, and learned the purge trick - which usually worked.

All this time when the car started it worked perfectly, no power loss or anything.

I decided to order a new fuel pump at this point.

OK, I kept using the car normally and one month ago or so, it died completely - on a slope, mind you.

Somehow, after an hour of trying I got it working again, but rather poorly.

Huge power loss, and come the next slope it died altogether. During this desperate limping, the engine sound was not what it's supposed to be.

Car was towed to a workshop.

They changed the fuel pump - didn't help.

After a few weeks, the guys at the workshop decided that they can't fix it. They don't know how to.

One guy was thinking about the air-in-the-system -possibility.

Well, I couldn't tell.

Really, they are the worst when it comes to fixing cars.

My insurance company pays the towing only to the closest authorized(I don't know who authorized them) workshop, so the cheapskate in me allowed this stupidity to happpen. I have regretted it immensely.

So I thanked the gentlemen at workshop A and towed the landy to workshop B.

Today I got a call from workshop B.

They believe - yes, they are not sure - that the injectors need be changed.

Changing them wouldn't guarantee it working as it's supposed to. But they believe it's the case.

They charge 900Euros per injector, so it's five of those cheap thingies. 4500Euros for the parts only!

Obviously I'm going to order the parts from somewhere else, but am I forced to take their advice?

Could it be something else? Preferably something cheaper. :)

I know it's probably hard to tell, but any tips are more than welcome!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4500 Euros for a set of injectors - cheaper to pay for me to fly to Finland lol ;)

I doubt its the injectors... to check, the garage could look at the live cylinder compensation via suitable diagnostic kit - if the values are below below +/- 10 then injectors are all ok.

By the sounds of it, it is more likely to be air getting into the fuel system - or even a partially blocked pipe.

I'd get the fuel pressure checked at the engine, and make sure it is seeing 4 bar.

Td5 Disco's do suffer split fuel pipes, more rare on Defenders - but worth checking.

The other thing that can cause problems is the fuel filter. It has been known for the filter housing to be porus, so sucks in air - these are a lot cheaper than a new injectors!!! ;) . Also, as mentioned change the filter.

I'd also fit a new set of injector sealing washers.

Is worth checking the red ECU plug, but usually this causes misfires rather than just stopping the engine.

Has there been any fault codes logged??

Ian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks guys!

I'm going to the garage tomorrow, I'll print this thread and translate. :)

Porny,

They were actually 980E a pop, so more like 4900E. :)

I'll get the fault codes tomorrow!

I also ordered a new injector wiring loom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The chances of it being the injectors is about zero. Try the injector harness, the injector washers and o-rings, test the fuel pressure at the regulator, etc. Even change the starter motor, no, really. A fault in the starter motor can cause the engine to fail to start even though it cranks ok.

Only LR stealers™ change injectors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(...)

Obviously I'm going to order the parts from somewhere else, but am I forced to take their advice?

Could it be something else? Preferably something cheaper. :)

I know it's probably hard to tell, but any tips are more than welcome!!

Splice in a piece of transparent (fuel-tolerant) tubing just before the high-pressure pump. Look for bubbles of air in the transparent tubing when the engine is running. If there are bubbles you have found your problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jim,

I'll try all those too, thanks!

Kim,

Thanks, that's a good one too - I'll try it!

My holiday is starting and my wallet is getting thinner, so I'll thank the gentlemen also at workshop B, take a print of the ECU fault codes and somehow teleport the car back home.

It's ridicilous that at these authorized workshops(in Finland) they really don't have a clue, and I pay thousands of euros for their experiments. And at the same time I get great tips from here - no charge!

Cheers guys!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, workshop guys said that there were no fault codes at all.

I noticed that the fuel pump is still making the weird fluctuating noises, not the constant whine that it's supposed to.

So I'm guessing it sucks air from somewhere..

It drives better now, actually almost OK.

Still hard to start and like I said the fuel pump noise is ridicilous.

Oil-in-the-loom: checked

No oil there. Took out the whole box, didn't have anything to open the tamper proof torx bolts with.

But I think that's not the problem.

Air leak it has to be.

BTW, I get my TD5 workshop manual tomorrow, so could someone please point out where the high-pressure pump is located.:) (Kim's post)

Sorry to spam, but I'm reporting as-it-happens.

After checking the ecu/loom -thingy, there actually were a bit of oil there.

Tiny tiny bit of it.

Nothing like in this article:

http://www.discovery2.co.uk/Injector_harness.html

After cleaning that up, the car starts immediately!!

So the starting problem is fixed, thanks to you guys!

The weirdest thing.

After cleaning the red plug, the car starts perfectly, and also the fuel pump sounds perfectly normal now..

Only for a second or two the noise is altering, then normal.

Could it really be this simple?

Well, well.

I think the strange fuel pump noise is back.

I might have been a bit too optimistic.

But like I said it starts immediately and runs pretty perfect.

But I think it's still sucking air from somewhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(...)

BTW, I get my TD5 workshop manual tomorrow, so could someone please point out where the high-pressure pump is located. :) (Kim's post)

(...)

You are probably more used to the term "injection pump".. I dont have a picture of a TD5, but if you can locate the fuel filter, one pipe should go from there to the injection pump. At least this is how things were on older diesels... The transparant tubing should be spliced in the fuel line between the fuel filter and injection pump. That way you can clearly see if the fuel is contaminated with air - there will be lots of small bubbles visible in the tubing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are probably more used to the term "injection pump".. I dont have a picture of a TD5, but if you can locate the fuel filter, one pipe should go from there to the injection pump. At least this is how things were on older diesels... The transparant tubing should be spliced in the fuel line between the fuel filter and injection pump. That way you can clearly see if the fuel is contaminated with air - there will be lots of small bubbles visible in the tubing.

It doest have an injector pump in the sense that a Tdi does. The in tank pump sends the fuel to the engine, where each injector has its own camshaft driven fuel pump to get the fuel to the needed pressure.

http://www.discoveryownersclub.org/tech/td5engine/#fue

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doest have an injector pump in the sense that a Tdi does. The in tank pump sends the fuel to the engine, where each injector has its own camshaft driven fuel pump to get the fuel to the needed pressure.

http://www.discoveryownersclub.org/tech/td5engine/#fue

OK - sorry for the confusion - but I havent had a chance to study a TD5 up close. I like the old diesels...

The fuel can still be tested with the transperant tubing though. It should be spliced in just before the fuel line reaches some form of distribution point on the engine.

I dont know how tolerant a TD5 is about air in the fuel. The TDi only tolerate a very small amount before it really drags engine power down.

Hope the issue gets resolved...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the fuel pump (which is immersed in the tank) keeps making strange noises, that can be the fault: first thing, replace the fuel filter, might be blocked.

Second, was the fuel tank emptied and cleaned BEFORE fitting the new pump? Newer pumps have a very fine strainer on the suction port, if there was dirty fuel in the tank that strainer might get blocked in a short time, thus starving the pump and so the whining noise. As said by other, check fuel delivery at the regulator block fitted on the rear RH corner of cylinder head: the pump should deliver fuel at 4 bar and 180 litres per hour, that is it should fill a 1 litre bottle in about 20 seconds.

Remeber, the Td5 is an electronic injector-pump diesel, so its fuel system is totally different from a conventional diesel engine; for God's sake, do not cut the fuel lines and/or splice any other pipe in them; all pipes have special fast connectors, and air is self-bleeded at the fuel filter by means of a special diaphragm.

Yes. get hold of the workshop manual and read carefully tha chapters about the fuel system and the engine management.

As for the injector units, the manufacturer says they have an average life of 800.000 kms (no typo there!), so most probably it isn't them! Leave them undisturbed...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And when you get the workshop manual read carefully the section about how to remove and replace the 8 spark plugs :D

The manual does, however, give a good description about how the engine systems work. The organisation of the manual is pretty terrible, often the bits about replacement are before the bits about removing things which is a bit confusing. Keep looking for the section you want, it is all in there somewhere. One good thing is that the torque settings are given in the text, unlike all other LR manuals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(...)

Remeber, the Td5 is an electronic injector-pump diesel, so its fuel system is totally different from a conventional diesel engine; for God's sake, do not cut the fuel lines and/or splice any other pipe in them; all pipes have special fast connectors, and air is self-bleeded at the fuel filter by means of a special diaphragm.

(...)

If that is true I sincerely apologise for adding confusion to the problem... As said, my comments were based on older diesels....

By the way, how good is that fuel filter at self-bleeding?

The injection pump on 200 and 300 tdi are stated to be self-bleedning in the workshop manual. Still they will not run properly when there is air in the fuel (but they can self-bleed when pumping fuel through new fuel lines or new fuel tanks).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If that is true I sincerely apologise for adding confusion to the problem... As said, my comments were based on older diesels....

By the way, how good is that fuel filter at self-bleeding?

The injection pump on 200 and 300 tdi are stated to be self-bleedning in the workshop manual. Still they will not run properly when there is air in the fuel (but they can self-bleed when pumping fuel through new fuel lines or new fuel tanks).

The TD5 is pretty good at self bleeding, even when you put on a new filter completely empty. The pump just runs a little longer, and then everything is fine. There is a special procedure for bleeding as well.

BTW, I found out earlier this week a TD5 will even run without a fuel pump! Be it at only about 25% power, still enough to get you home. :i-m_so_happy:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Switch on the 'ignition' and then pump the pedal about 4 or 5 times. The MIL light will flash on and off, which means you are into the correct mode. Then hold the pedal to the metal and start the engine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Update:

Landy runs fine.

Fuel pump noise is still not normal and I'm determined to find out what it is.

It has been scorchingly hot for the last two days here in Finland, so progress has been slow.

I've had two new pumps in the car already, first was installed by WS A and second new unit by WS B.

Just got the tank out and decided to call it a day.

I'm not changing the pump, just checking the tank itself isn't full of carp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fuel tank was squeaky clean.

Everything was perfectly ok down there.

The only way I can get the fuel pump working properly is to thoroughly clean the red ECU plug and keep the car on idle.

Works like a charm.

If I go for a ride, it quickly gets contaminated again, and all the problems start again. Won't start, runs not that great + fuel pump is whining like crazy.

Now I know that if the pump is "singing" it won't start - back to cleaning the red plug!

Summa summarum, the fuel pump was probably fine all along, ECU was just acting up, feeding "wrong information" all around.

I installed a new wiring harness yesterday. Very simple and easy task.

Now I'm just wondering afterwards if the part I installed was the "new improved" model and how long will it take to get rid of the lefout oil still in the loom..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Destroy the seal between the two harnesses on the front of the engine. Then any oil coming down the injector harness will just leak out and not go further to the ECU. We attack the seal with a 3mm drill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Destroy the seal between the two harnesses on the front of the engine.

Hi Jim,

Can you tell me more about the mod you do to the seal.

I can't get my head around your description - is it the engine loom side of the connector you drill out?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

OK.

Now all the problems have been fixed - it took a while. :)

There were quite a few!

1. Oil in the loom

2. One of the looms which connect to fuel pump was somehow leaking air in the system which caused fuel pressure to drop.

3. Injector sealing washers were also leaking.

Just to let you know. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy