Howlin' Wolf Round 5

[Chris Abel]

We were going to enter four of the howling woolfe starting with the kirton site, but after speaking to a couple that entered the last one, they declined to do anymore because of a couple of guys cheating by running over the tape, and apparently these guys are in the top 3 !!. so we decided not to enter this event because of what we heard. But they did says the howling is one of the best set out and organised events, just a shame there's cheating exercisers !!

I would like to say that Simon and do not cheat and have no intention of cheating, we get good results by a combination of driving/ co-driving skill, teamwork and a well setup truck. We do not need to cheat to get good results.

There were far to many punches that had rope and posts ran over on sunday, if you do run the rope over or push a post over then put it back to how it was or call a marshall over to put it right again dont just leave it.

Whoever it was that drove straight over the rope to get punch 1 must have known exactly what they were doing.

[alan kemp]

We were going to enter four of the howling woolfe starting with the kirton site, but after speaking to a couple that entered the last one, they declined to do anymore because of a couple of guys cheating by running over the tape, and apparently these guys are in the top 3 !!. so we decided not to enter this event because of what we heard. But they did says the howling is one of the best set out and organised events, just a shame there's cheating exercisers !!

The guy you are talking about (and we all know who he is) is no longer in the top 3 'cos he is being watched and knows it, his usual punch count is well down on what it used to be. Mind you, I believe he ran over 2 posts in the effort to reach two punches but only got 1 lot of penalties. One rule break was seen by spectators, not marshalls.

I know we never cheat, (not that we are in the top 3), I am damn sure Chris and Si dont, (yes folks, they really are that good ).

There were 2 cars, one of which came in the top few who bent the rules by teaming up for the first 3 or 4 punches but I'd like to think they wont do that again. The others were unseen by me, dont know if anyone else saw the cheaters.

I am sure the organisers and marshalls know how good this event is, their feel good factor should be high but like any big event, things just need tweaking a bit as it evolves.

[dirtydiesel]

Don't see why you have to put so many in such deep water, as the site is so big and so much was not used

What deep water? only got my seat wet once

The only critisizm of the setting up i have is dead end sections. really frustrating having to turn the car around at end of the tape, more one way sections would be perfect.

A few of the sections were setup too small for our cars a bit anoyying when space is about the only thing your not short of at kirton.

[JST]

Despite the observations and the way this thread has gone i would like to reiterate my initial points that i loved the site, and thought it a great weekend with all credit due to Neil and his team. The marshalls and scrutineers alike have a thankless task at the best of times so thanks for being there standing around no doubt getting cold and looking after us. i would certainly be looking to compete again next year if i can find a driver(!) and think Kirton has a lot to offer - now Slab that was Wet!

[Adrian Turner]

''Oh god'' now look what i've started, i was only saying that with a site that big use it all and not so much in the water, i'll not talk about it anymore. Anybody that know's me will know that i will drive up/down and through anything you can set out.......... plus i like the site as it has so much to offer.

Don't hammer the marshall's as they do a hard job in some plop weather, the series is very, very well run. And will all my remark's you would have thought we had had a bad day but we had had a very good'ish (read snapped TRE) day all in all.

And for me i can not wait for Tong as i,ve not been before, if you want to have a chat come and find me, you no who i am, and we can discuss thing's as next year i may be joining you guy's Then there will be some moan's

[nicks90]

marshalling..... hmmm. bloody hard work and not something i will do again.

i marshalled at muddy truckers a few years ago.

Stood on a hill top in the driving snow for 2 days on a SS. What thanks did i get?

A torrent of abuse from one team who were repairing their motor after screwing up the timed section and then another team giving me abuse for not reporting "cheating" of the team who ran the section straight after them. They were just bitter cos they second team had a much better plan and interpretation of the SS rules. [*]

Its not something i will ever do again, out of pocket on fuel costs, food and accomodation - spent the whole weekend in sub zero temps with driving snow in my face - only to be given shedloads of grief from certain over competitive oafs because they cant use their noggin.

[*] taped off circle with one entry and exit - you had to drop into a big hole and use a ground anchor/winch to climb the other side - round a cane and back into the hole and ground anchor/winch to exit. As soon as first motor goes through the gate the clock started and stopped when second motor left the section. One team cleverly set up the ground anchors outside the taped sections BEFORE entering any motor and starting the clocks. That way they drove straight in and rigged the cable and pulled, unrigged and then rigged straight to second anchor and pulled. Must have won by about 4 minutes! The other team thought that was cheating, but nowhere in the brief did it say you couldnt pre-prepare your anchors. Very clever chaps.

[tombraider110]

I had a great time at Kirton i miss a lot of the punches as there just wasn't space for a 110 to get in and out, the water was fun and i'm in a TD5 with no water proofing other than a snorkle.

The only thing that made a mess of my weekend up north was the turbo vaporising it's self on the way home on the M18 so i got home at 3 this morning. BUT I STILL HAD A GREAT WEEKEND.

THANK YOU TO ALL

[bobtail4x4]

marshalling..... hmmm. bloody hard work and not something i will do again.

i marshalled at muddy truckers a few years ago.

Stood on a hill top in the driving snow for 2 days on a SS. What thanks did i get?

A torrent of abuse from one team who were repairing their motor after screwing up the timed section and then another team giving me abuse for not reporting "cheating" of the team who ran the section straight after them. They were just bitter cos they second team had a much better plan and interpretation of the SS rules. [*]

Its not something i will ever do again, out of pocket on fuel costs, food and accomodation - spent the whole weekend in sub zero temps with driving snow in my face - only to be given shedloads of grief from certain over competitive oafs because they cant use their noggin.

[*] taped off circle with one entry and exit - you had to drop into a big hole and use a ground anchor/winch to climb the other side - round a cane and back into the hole and ground anchor/winch to exit. As soon as first motor goes through the gate the clock started and stopped when second motor left the section. One team cleverly set up the ground anchors outside the taped sections BEFORE entering any motor and starting the clocks. That way they drove straight in and rigged the cable and pulled, unrigged and then rigged straight to second anchor and pulled. Must have won by about 4 minutes! The other team thought that was cheating, but nowhere in the brief did it say you couldnt pre-prepare your anchors. Very clever chaps.

It always suprises me how many compies just drive a section, until someone comes up with a better way, such as starting and finishing in reverse at Cowm last month, saves a 7 point turn.

Nick if marshals dont get paid or even petrol money how else did you think you would end up but out of pocket?

[robhybrid]

The guy you are talking about (and we all know who he is) is no longer in the top 3 'cos he is being watched and knows it, his usual punch count is well down on what it used to be. Mind you, I believe he ran over 2 posts in the effort to reach two punches but only got 1 lot of penalties. One rule break was seen by spectators, not marshalls.

I know we never cheat, (not that we are in the top 3), I am damn sure Chris and Si dont, (yes folks, they really are that good ).

There were 2 cars, one of which came in the top few who bent the rules by teaming up for the first 3 or 4 punches but I'd like to think they wont do that again. The others were unseen by me, dont know if anyone else saw the cheaters.

I am sure the organisers and marshalls know how good this event is, their feel good factor should be high but like any big event, things just need tweaking a bit as it evolves.

Hands up

Just in case Alan hasnt made it clear enough he is refering to me !!!!!

2 months ago I did get one cyber point by parking along side the rope the key rope was then long enough to reach without being pulled in any way from its steel peg.

I did not drive over the rope in any way

I had the points deducted and a month later on enquiring why was duly informed of the reasons, my vehicle didnt cross the blue rope barrier.

The rules regarding rope have certanly been made crystal clear now !

The guy you are talking about (and we all know who he is) is no longer in the top 3 'cos he is being watched and knows it, his usual punch count is well down on what it used to be. Mind you, I believe he ran over 2 posts in the effort to reach two punches but only got 1 lot of penalties. One rule break was seen by spectators, not marshalls.

Was this called for?

My usuall punch count was not in real terms well down.

I had 4 less than you whilst breaking my rear winch rope and running from 12:00 with no lockers (killed my arb compressor deep water)

I did not run arround teamed up with a red 90 like your self, nor did I brag "you wont get that one on your own mate."

It looks to me as if I should ask you in the future as to any reasons to penalties as you appear to know more than me or the event organisers!

I knew I had driven over the blue rope whilst reversing out after achiving the cyber key on the rock crawl section, considering my ground anchor had just given way and it was either that or roll end over end a couple of times a penalty was preferable.

I dont know what the other penalty on my score was for maybee you could tell me.

I unlike some have never intentionally driven over rope in order to get to a punch or expected to be given the score for a punch if I intentionally drove over the rope to get out.

I understand peoples frustration when they see marks that show otherwise.

I regularly throw myself into a deliberately hard punch/cyber point at the start of the day knowing that some/most points generally get a lot easyer as the day progresses.

I regularly "team up" for one punch as helping get someone through a section quicker enables me to get there quicker and almost ensures a return favour If that competitor sees me in trouble in the future. I did this for Chris at my firs punch of the day punch 1, he helped me out of a particularly nasty bog hole at glyn neath/seven sisters last year.

I come to these events to push my self and my vehicle, I want to enjoy the "event" indeed I have quite often done better at an event when I have relaxed thinking that I was way off the pace.

I dont want a slanging match here or anywhere else.

My alternative interpritation seems to have caused some people some severe offence for which I apologise.

I have no issues with marshals paying me fair close attention.

I appreciate the thankless job they have to do and thank them for doing it.

Neil has a difficult job to do with people complainig to him from all angles. I have no intention of making his job any harder.

Alan I hope I can shake your hand/ buy you a pint/ help you out of a bog hole in the near future.

I wont be backing down to make your life any easyer at getting to the top

I now have even more to prove, that I can still do well, without cheating in your eyes, and marshall scruitiny.

now stepping down off soap box

[alan kemp]

Hands up

Just in case Alan hasnt made it clear enough he is refering to me !!!!!

2 months ago I did get one cyber point by parking along side the rope the key rope was then long enough to reach without being pulled in any way from its steel peg.

I did not drive over the rope in any way

I had the points deducted and a month later on enquiring why was duly informed of the reasons, my vehicle didnt cross the blue rope barrier.

The rules regarding rope have certanly been made crystal clear now !

Well done for owning up publically Rob, as I said on the thread after the incident, you are good enough to do it without cheating.

You have done well before, the problem is, people may now think that you did well because you cheated, that may not be the case and am in no way saying it is. The problem is you did it. Wether you drove over the rope or not on this instance is irrelevant, you must have known that what you were doing was wrong but you still did it. The fact that you had the points deducted is irrelevant, to me it should be instant disqualification.

Was this called for?

My usuall punch count was not in real terms well down.

I had 4 less than you whilst breaking my rear winch rope and running from 12:00 with no lockers (killed my arb compressor deep water)

I did not run arround teamed up with a red 90 like your self, nor did I brag "you wont get that one on your own mate."

It looks to me as if I should ask you in the future as to any reasons to penalties as you appear to know more than me or the event organisers!

I knew I had driven over the blue rope whilst reversing out after achiving the cyber key on the rock crawl section, considering my ground anchor had just given way and it was either that or roll end over end a couple of times a penalty was preferable.

I dont know what the other penalty on my score was for maybee you could tell me.

I unlike some have never intentionally driven over rope in order to get to a punch or expected to be given the score for a punch if I intentionally drove over the rope to get out.

You used to beat us on every event and were usually in the top 3 or the winner. I have not studied the results on every event but I think your punch count will be down. We were taking it very easy as I have no time to fix the car before the Tay if it broke.

I teamed up with Petebog for one punch which was unsafe to lower down to with a ground anchor. My "brag" as you call it was freindly advice as I had spent 15 minutes trying to do it on a ground anchor and it would not stay in, the punch was not safe to do it that way. Pete and I teamed up for that punch only which is allowed. We did not team up or use any other cars for assistance any other time during the day.

I watched you and another competitor winch up the side of the rock crawl half on the dirt, not the rock. The marshall had just replaced the post after the guy before us did exactly the same. The post was there to stop us going up the easier dirt line. You took the post out on your way up. We did it up the rocks all the way up and down.

I unlike some have never intentionally driven over rope in order to get to a punch or expected to be given the score for a punch if I intentionally drove over the rope to get out.

If we all did this, there would be no problems, I just wish everyone did..

I regularly "team up" for one punch as helping get someone through a section quicker enables me to get there quicker and almost ensures a return favour If that competitor sees me in trouble in the future. I did this for Chris at my firs punch of the day punch 1, he helped me out of a particularly nasty bog hole at glyn neath/seven sisters last year.

Exactly what me and Petbog did, no problem with that as long as it is only for one punch occasionally.

I come to these events to push my self and my vehicle, I want to enjoy the "event" indeed I have quite often done better at an event when I have relaxed thinking that I was way off the pace.

I can totally agree with that..

I dont want a slanging match here or anywhere else.

My alternative interpritation seems to have caused some people some severe offence for which I apologise.

I have no issues with marshals paying me fair close attention.

I appreciate the thankless job they have to do and thank them for doing it.

You were doing so well Rob, call it what it was mate.

Alan I hope I can shake your hand/ buy you a pint/ help you out of a bog hole in the near future.

I wont be backing down to make your life any easyer at getting to the top

I now have even more to prove, that I can still do well, without cheating in your eyes, and marshall scruitiny.

For you Rob, its unfortunate that you were the one that was caught out, there are others but we dont know who they are yet.

I have watched you compete over the years and you are genuinely good at the game, there is no need to have "alternative interpretations", you can do it on your own merit. I will be happy to drop a few pints with you and shake hands, shall we say at the Tay? I am sure you will compete in the spirit of the event in future, I'll be watching my back.

I think we should all keep our eyes peeled for cheating, lets get it out of the game and make it enjoyable for everyone.

[simon red90]

I would like to say that Simon and do not cheat and have no intention of cheating, we get good results by a combination of driving/ co-driving skill, teamwork and a well setup truck. We do not need to cheat to get good results.

nuff said. anyone who thinks otherwise come see me for a little enlightenment. face to face.

I know we never cheat, (not that we are in the top 3), I am damn sure Chris and Si dont, (yes folks, they really are that good ).

nicely put alan.

Hands up

Just in case Alan hasnt made it clear enough he is refering to me !!!!!......

...I regularly "team up" for one punch as helping get someone through a section quicker enables me to get there quicker and almost ensures a return favour If that competitor sees me in trouble in the future. I did this for Chris at my firs punch of the day punch 1, he helped me out of a particularly nasty bog hole at glyn neath/seven sisters last year....

.....I dont want a slanging match here or anywhere else.....

....Alan I hope I can shake your hand/ buy you a pint/ help you out of a bog hole in the near future.

I wont be backing down to make your life any easyer at getting to the top

I now have even more to prove, that I can still do well, without cheating in your eyes, and marshall scruitiny. now stepping down off soap box

fair play rob. now my bit. listen in.

i've got no issues with rob. first and foremost, he saved me and chris a few mins on punch one. thanks mate.

i think all this has been blown out of proportion by some actions and or words that have been taken the wrong way or way out of place.

BUT.

AS WE ALL KNOW, SOME WASTERS DO PERSIST ON TAKING THE tiddle WITH THE ROPE. if thats what you think you need to do to get the punch, get on some novice events - because you dont. infact why bother even turning up. can some one please enlighten all of us the whole point of the sport? - to got your vehicle to obscure places, using skill, determination and wit. if you need to cheat you really ought be some joey parking posh peoples cars in bays at the hilton on your weekends. you may find it more satisfying.

[AVIT]

nuff said. anyone who thinks otherwise come see me for a little enlightenment. face to face.

nicely put alan.

fair play rob. now my bit. listen in.

i've got no issues with rob. first and foremost, he saved me and chris a few mins on punch one. thanks mate.

i think all this has been blown out of proportion by some actions and or words that have been taken the wrong way or way out of place.

BUT.

AS WE ALL KNOW, SOME WASTERS DO PERSIST ON TAKING THE tiddle WITH THE ROPE. if thats what you think you need to do to get the punch, get on some novice events - because you dont. infact why bother even turning up. can some one please enlighten all of us the whole point of the sport? - to got your vehicle to obscure places, using skill, determination and wit. if you need to cheat you really ought be some joey parking posh peoples cars in bays at the hilton on your weekends. you may find it more satisfying.

thers is a challenge where there are very few marshalls and I read some where in the rules that "cheating was mandatory" The ultimate challenge and santas challenge.

[V8CAMEL]

this seems silly

i for one would as rob did run over tapes if safety came first and would also put my hand up and either redo the punch or take the hit. To be disqualified because you broke the tape in the interest of safety is stupid.Safety comes first, second and third.

I have also acted as a ground anchor on events if i have had the misfortune to break the vehicle and been unable to continue to compete. I have also teamed up with another vehicle on odd punches to allow us both to get them but then i do compete in a series 3 leaf sprung basic landrover without all the mod cons you guys use. Maybe all the extras are cheating, as the definiton of the word is "Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest" ,compared to me in my standard landrover.

perhaps we should take away all the toys and then compete on a level playing field, to me winning never mattered ( well i aint going to win in a series) but challenging myself and the vehicle, i dont think i ever came away without a smile on my face and i did beat ed cobley once ( well he broke down)

learn to enjoy its not the winning that matters its the taking part

paul

[najw]

Well hopefully that's cleared the air a little, it was a bit like trying to get wind out of a baby, lots of rubbing but finally a big burp

I can assure you from an organisers point of view that normal service will be resumed at the next event.

In the meantime championship tables are now available to absorb

HERE

Thanks to JST for pointing out that I hadn't posted them

[Redeye]

ok the only way I can see the cheating problem to cease is, if each competitor had to bring a friend to marshal that way we would have more than enough people to cover the whole site..

if you don’t bring a marshal you don’t compete now how many of you could/would do that?

we have tried various different ways of rotating/covering punches cyber point's over the years but it's all down to the little amount of man power that we have sometimes it's very stretched and in some cases far from enough.

I personally have marshalled from day 1 of these event’s that Neil and Carole have organised over the past few years and watched it grow from the humble beginning’s at Hogsmoor arena into what I think is the best and most varied challenge series going. I’ve seen many people come and go I’ve had abuse directed at me and others for our decisions on competitors who think its wrong we know the rules. Some people bend them if you want to dispute a decision you’re more than welcome to a stewards inquiry.

Nothing tinkles me off more than the cheating lowest of the low pond life scum bags that still find the urge to cheat!!! us the people that take our own time Saturdays/Sundays sometimes more weekends as Neil said to Recce sites to work out technical sections set them up fix take down collect put away etc etc , you the decent and very skilful co drivers/drivers who do the sections sometimes not quite the way we think you would do them! But still do them all properly. To the pond life that goes in like a worm over under through the rope bunting stakes to claim one more set of easy points please do us all the honour of slipping to the murky depths of your pond and don’t come back.

Rob respect to you for coming clean and explaining your side of the story end of…

Now put all your toys back in your respective prams and prove your all good sportsmen and get on with thecompetition of being as good as his lordship Chris Abel and the winch magician Simon Wilkinson well done by the way again…

Roll on West Harptree

Andy chief marshal aka the surrey mafia

[CrewCab]

normal service will be resumed at the next event.

I wasn't aware we had lost "Normal service" Neil

As far as I'm concerned it was a good weekend, as for paying me to marshal ............... that's not why I do it guys, nor do any of the other NCGL gang. If you want marshals that work with you offering them £5 to turn up isn't the way forward imho ..........

From a marshal's point of view guys it's a bit of a learning curve for us too, we ain't all been here marshalling since the sixties so shout up with any problems ............... wth ....... we can always ignore you ........... Badger and Glaggs lead the NCGL marshalling contingent and the work they put in is immeasurable imho ......... if you have useful suggestions regarding marshalling drop them a pm, or me, whatever, If you have a problem regarding marshalling to date ........... the same applies

CC

[bush doctor]

Cor !!

Gets a bit bitchy on ere dont it. Think I'll stick to offroading in Devon (well except this weekend when we are at Slindon)

[alan kemp]

Cor !!

Gets a bit bitchy on ere dont it. Think I'll stick to offroading in Devon (well except this weekend when we are at Slindon)

You are lucky to have such a varied set of comps down there. It always seems busy. I would love to have more local comps up here but we dont have the sites available.

[alan kemp]

As far as I'm concerned it was a good weekend, as for paying me to marshal ............... that's not why I do it guys, nor do any of the other NCGL gang. If you want marshals that work with you offering them £5 to turn up isn't the way forward imho ..........

It was just a suggestion, not a good one I admit

[bobtail4x4]

Yea £5 wont keep crewcab in halfshafts

[white90]

JST events =no assistance is allowed that way no teaming up.

I've witnessed cheating by a team at a challenger4x4 event

including carrying the stick to the car with the punch attatched then replacing it afterwards

this was a blatant cheat and makes you wonder what is the point, but who are they cheating?

only fooling themselves.

and driven sites after other teams have done punches that took me an hour(probably as I'm carp) to see the same punch driven in 10mins as the

layout has been desamated tapes broken etc.

If cheating continues it will as said kill the sport.

[CrewCab]

It was just a suggestion, not a good one I admit

Alan, all suggestions are worth considering mate, no offence taken

Yea £5 wont keep crewcab in halfshafts

Mike, I thought we'd agreed not to remind me........ talk .......... about the half shafts ............ dam Monkey Metal

CC

[swanny]

i had a brill weekend thanks for every one who turned up.

swanny (white van man )

[JST]

Well my boots have almost dried out from the weekend!!!!!

[alan kemp]

Well my boots have almost dried out from the weekend!!!!!

Mine are above the fireplace trying to dry out before the Tay, My living room's a bit wiffy, and warm