Alternative to Megasquirt

[q-rover]

Anyone tried Vems?

[RangeyRover]

Up and Coming true Open source

Free EMS

[FridgeFreezer]

Both are MS spin-offs, indeed there are a few familiar names mentioned in both projects. Both have pros and cons, TBH I'm not sure any of us are doing anything that warrants the extra features. It'll be interesting to see what goes where, especially with MS3 on the horizon.

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

I guess VEMS is aimed at the folk who want to buy most of the 'DIY' items off the shelf, this effectivly makes it a COTS product.

DIYEFI is a fledgling organisation that is not providing a whole lot more than the current MS. Its good to see that they give James Murray the kudos he (and others ) deserve...................It should also be noted that MS is true open source.

MS is now very, very mature and almost any question about all manner of applications can be answered in minute detail by the MS team (James, Phil T, Phil, Matt, & Bill)......... others will have to tread the long (and sometimes difficult) road to get the this level of expertise.

I will stick with MS and just keep a watching brief on the others.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hmmmm

Interestingly since fitting Megajolt, and then later on full Megasquirt SnE I have spent much time understanding Omex Emerald DTA Vems and a few others on the market.

They all have their place, some have minor advantages over others, all have their own drawbacks, none is "best" (dare I say Ultimate )

it is very much a case of what are you looking for = what may be best for you and your application id off the shelf purchase is a requirment then maybe MS isn't 1st pratical choice etc.

I think that there may be more "Advanced" systems than Megasquirt, as to if they are a truly open source and as to if they gain the following of MS time will tell,

it Could easily also be as in the battle between VHS and Betamax tape recorders of the past, ....whilst Betamax was deemed to be "more advanced" VHS was the established favourite and won hands down even if not technically the best.

MS has a Huge following (not here just go to www.msefi.com and see) this following and the knowledge and established forums add value that is irreplacable IMHO to many other systems.

I'll keep reading and learning on all, but I'll stick with my MS SnE as it does everything I ever wished for and then some

Nige

[_Fred_]

Hi guys,

Fred from DIYEFI.org here, does anyone object to me clearing up a few points in this thread? If so, I'll vanish, if not, cool :-)

Cheers,

Fred.

[Les Henson]

As long as you don't post a price list

Les.

[istruggle2gate11]

Hi guys,

Fred from DIYEFI.org here, does anyone object to me clearing up a few points in this thread? If so, I'll vanish, if not, cool :-)

Cheers,

Fred.

Im not a moderator but.....

would be interested to hear more

[_Fred_]

Hi again :-)

As long as you don't post a price list

LOL, there is no price list, and the chances of me ever selling anything related other than maybe my time one day is slim to none. Money is more easily made writing software than selling PCBs ;-) Thanks for allowing me to attempt to clear things up from my point of view.

The board software tells me I've typed too much, so I'll split it over a few posts if that's OK.

Both are MS spin-offs, indeed there are a few familiar names mentioned in both projects.

Can you define spin off? To me it implies uses some part of the other project and is a descendant of it. If you define it the same way then it is in no way a spin off. If you define it as "SOME of the users have used MS before and posted on msextra etc" then sure, but I think that definition is fundamentally flawed. To be crystal clear, absolutely NO part of the code is anything to do with MS AT ALL. I'd be offended if someone compared my code with that found in MS land, at least on a style/structure level anyway. If compared with on a functional level one day I'd be proud to come close to what Ken and James have achieved for most users including myself.

Both have pros and cons

The biggest con FreeEMS has is that its only 25% finished and doesn't do anything all that useful just yet. That will change pretty soon though :-) Cons for MS... That deserves another thread, but the main one is hardware. Specifically grounding, power and not being able to legally make your own and improve some of the flaws present. It is conceivable that a skilled individual could get an engine running for under 50 us dollars with FreeEMS. That simply isn't possible with MegaSquirt, at least, not legally. In that vane, for the same price as a v3 and ms2 you could have 6 cylinder sequential and proper grounding. The benefits of profit-margin-less designs should be fairly major. Not to mention that dozens of people put input into the open designs ensuring the chance of a flaw making it to the board printer is fairly slim. Anything seriously wrong will generate a public comment saying "no, fix that!!" fairly quickly.

TBH I'm not sure any of us are doing anything that warrants the extra features.

That is probably true. A conservative view is that ms1 is good from 100 - 150hp/litre and ms2 from 150 - 200hp/litre. With a large capacity engine (read v8) that is rarely a limitation. Obviously you can do a LOT more than that with few issues, but injector size gets to shaft you in the end with batch injection either by opening time error or latency and response due to insufficiently up to date pulse widths. Worst case you get a high non-smooth idle. I love ms2extra, it works great, but doesn't meet all of my needs, especially being able to change the board and code and share it 100% freely.

It'll be interesting to see what goes where, especially with MS3 on the horizon.

MS3 probably won't be out before next year. FreeEMS on the other hand should be up and humming by then. Only time will tell if my confidence is for good reason or not though :-) There are many unseen traps that could hold us up along the way!

TBC...

[_Fred_]

...

DIYEFI is a fledgling organisation that is not providing a whole lot more than the current MS.

Define a "lot more" ? Among other things :

not commercially censored place to discuss diy efi without risk of good old Lance editing it away with the delete button.

freedom to do as you please with the code and hardware designs - including make your own stuff with no royalties and sell products to use it with only competition to set your price for you. (competition should ensure most pricing is low)

code that a non coding god can read and understand and modify

sequential injection

3x the pin count

MS3 will change some of that, but MS3 will cost at least twice what a decent FreeEMS setup will cost.

I think it's a lot, but that's clearly subjective :-) Opinions may vary.

Its good to see that they give James Murray the kudos he (and others ) deserve...

Absolutely, it really annoys me that the dozens of contributors aren't openly recognised for the work they have done. If not for James, Keith, Ken, etc where would MS be now???? No where near where it is, I assure you. Even the VEMS boys did us all some good by shaking up the scene and motivating the existence of MS2. If you know of anyone else that should be on the contributors page, please let me know as I wouldn't want to leave anyone out :-)

It should also be noted that MS is true open source.

This I fully disagree with. Open source was coined by the open source initiative and they define it as at least being semi free to take and change etc. MS in contrast is copyrighted, patented and all rights reserved. It's not true open source at all. The source is open to be read and even modified, but that doesn't earn it that title. Have a read of this :

www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

Endorsed OS licenses are listed here :

www.opensource.org/licenses

MS isn't listed, and for good reason!

MS is now very, very mature and almost any question about all manner of applications can be answered in minute detail by the MS team (James, Phil T, Phil, Matt, & Bill)......... others will have to tread the long (and sometimes difficult) road to get the this level of expertise.

Indeed, the wealth of knowledge is very large. The expertise is largely present on diyefi.org and growing daily, only the product to gain interest is not complete just yet. Time will tell :-)

I will stick with MS and just keep a watching brief on the others.

Me too for now, just a little more closely than you might be ;-)

TBC...

[_Fred_]

...

They all have their place, some have minor advantages over others, all have their own drawbacks, none is "best" (dare I say Ultimate )

Absolutely, DIY isn't for everyone, but DIY isn't supported very well just yet. Future MS products are looking to be all SMD and factory built. Where is the fun in that?

as to if they are a truly open source and as to if they gain the following of MS time will tell,

As above, truly open source is defined clearly and you can know that right now. You are 100% right about the last one, but I venture to say a successful free "product" will attract a LOT of interest indeed.

it Could easily also be as in the battle between VHS and Betamax tape recorders of the past, ....whilst Betamax was deemed to be "more advanced" VHS was the established favourite and won hands down even if not technically the best.

This is possible, but I think the true open source factor will win over a lot of users in the end.

MS has a Huge following (not here just go to www.msefi.com and see) this following and the knowledge and established forums add value that is irreplacable IMHO to many other systems.

Very true, FreeEMS will definitely stay niche no matter how good it is without that. Having said that, I don't want it to be a commercial success and attract a bunch lazy, tight and dumb people who just want "something that works and is cheap" - they can get lost! :-)

Sorry if it was a bit long, I'm just quite fussy and like things to be crystal clear.

Cheers,

Fred.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

...

Having said that, I don't want it to be a commercial success and attract a bunch lazy, tight and dumb people who just want "something that works and is cheap" - they can get lost! :-)

Cheers,

Fred.

Erm fred....

Some of us here could maybe on a good day could maybe score 2 out of 3 on the above

Seriously some good stuff above, I have had a lookie at the site a number of times, it is (I Think) as you say in its early stages of development, and that means more competiton and lateral thinking from an establish system maybe, which is good, but it has taken me Hundreds of hours to learn about MS and I still feel like Forest gump talking to Prof Stephen Hawkins at times there is so much more I don't know, as such DIY site may be good for my knowledge base and education (Gawd help your forum if I register ) but keep up the good work and pop in here from time to time to update us.

I guess here MS is a means to and end for many of us, its just part of our hobby (and for me a very importnant key part) and I'll be hard pushed to move to something else, but its not impossible

Nige

[_Fred_]

Some of us here could maybe on a good day could maybe score 2 out of 3 on the above

It's worth noting that you could be hard working, generous and brilliant and still want "something that works and is cheap". Those people are definitely welcome :-)

but it has taken me Hundreds of hours to learn about MS and I still feel like Forest gump talking to Prof Stephen Hawkins at times

That's a thorny one actually. I took a long time to digest MS myself. EFI, no problem, simple stuff, but MS itself, hmmm. When I look at the docs I feel like I can't see the trees for the forrest. IMO Lance's docs are a bit too verbose, but at the same time if you go lean on them you may generate excess support load. I'd like to avoid that and it may or may not be possible. Again, time will tell :-)

but keep up the good work and pop in here from time to time to update us.

Will do :-)

I guess here MS is a means to and end for many of us, its just part of our hobby (and for me a very importnant key part)

I 110% understand, and you are well catered for by MS in that respect 99% of the time I think.

and I'll be hard pushed to move to something else, but its not impossible

It would certainly make it an easier thought to digest if the cost of "system trial" was much lower from a monetary point of view though wouldn't it ;-)

Regards,

Fred.

[aaron_h]

I still feel like Forest gump talking to Prof Stephen Hawkins at times there is so much more I don't know, as such DIY site may be good for my knowledge

Haha, Yer well if you feel like forest gump talking to Prof Stephen Hawkins im a fair few flights of stairs behind you Nige.

Iv taken the MS manual to work and read it bit by bit a few more times, and your map gets an extra 2 MPG

Any Alternative to that Lucarse carp is a positive, be it megasquirt, or an equal. Although now im starting to understand it i dont think id ever change it for anything different. Especially with the fact that if my MS goes worng its backed by Philip Ringwood who will repair it at a cost of components and P&P only.

Electronic components Cheap as chips, and id be useless at fixing it myself

Nige = Guru compared to me

[Turbocharger]

Fred - I'm a diesel man through and through so I'll butt out of this bunfight shortly but I'd like to say how well you've presented your viewpoint. It's considered, even and doesn't rant. Top man!

Have you considered opening a business which applies under-vehicle corrosion protection coatings?

[_Fred_]

Fred - I'm a diesel man through and through so I'll butt out of this bunfight shortly

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f323/fredio54/100_1917.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff261/f...7/0100_2723.jpg

Me too, but I don't believe that they should be run by computers. A large part of the plus side of diesels is their ability to only need fuel and air. My life has been saved once by an old marinated 180/250 ford I6 running under salt water and drinking a fair bit too. Electronic diesels turn me off. I'd rather take the turbo off them and do this with them :

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f323/fredio54/100_4031.jpg

Having said that, you should be able to run an electronic 6 pot diesel of some sort with FreeEMS one day :-)

but I'd like to say how well you've presented your viewpoint. It's considered, even and doesn't rant. Top man!

Thank you very much :-)

Have you considered opening a business which applies under-vehicle corrosion protection coatings?

LOL, no, can't say I have, but I do HATE rust with a vengeance. Something to do with liking 50's and 60's aircooled VW's I guess :-)

I also forgot something up above while explaining why I don't see FreeEMS as a spin off of MS. It should be noted that VEMS original code called MSAVR really was MS code redone in C for the AVR, this upset B&G&Co a lot. These days VEMS has a lot of it's own stuff, but still uses MegaTune. So, VEMS really IS a spin off in the true sense.

Cheers,

Fred.